Is the new "Inovation" mechanic is a pointless adition?

[Lor360]

For those that dont know, the next immersion pack anounced today brings with it a "inovation" stat. Basicaly, countries ahead of time on tech will start geting a discount to everything costing monarch points; up to 10%.

Firstly, much like army professionalism, its not obvious even if its worth it. You will probably need a few centuries of sacrifice to gain it. And then, in the last few hundred years, when you allready won and are massivley disinheriting rulers for stats and runing level 5 advisors you will get... basicaly 10% more monarch points?
Why? So that my coring costs in 1800 can be 85% reduced instead of 75% reduced?
Sure, a 10% discount on anything is better than not, but is it realy worth wasting monarch points at the start of the game when you need them the most so you can have slightly more points at a time when youre on top of the world?

Aditionaly, you can just wait a few years to get a tech discount from your neighbours being ahead of you: for military ideas this is certanly a bad choice, but laging 1-2 techs in administrative or diplomatic is similar in terms of savings as a 10% monarch point discount that you have to actualy work for.

Admitedly, I dont do any crazy power play stuff like starting as a sea tile and conquering the world or something. But for me Inovation seems incredibly weak, coming at a time I least need it.
I can easily get a 10-30% tech discount from neighbours with a spy network and by just being behind tech a little.
Yet im supposed to want Inovation cause if I buy tech when its 10% more monarch points I can get 10% more monarch points later?

Yes, I get that a spy network needs a diplomat. That the neighbouring tech discount is usualy 5-10%. That 10% less on all power costs is not the same as 10% less on tech cost.
But it seems like EU 4 is starting to pile on unimaginative mechanics that are duplicating each others effects or in direct contradiction to each other, just for the sake of "we got a new mechanic every patch".

One of the other selling points in the new Britannia DLC is "Trade Steering: Force your defeated enemies to have their merchants fill your coffers."
...Is this realy that different than the existing transfer trade power? Maybe im wrong and maybe it will be some awesome incredible feature, but I suspect it will just be slightly different but basicaly the same as transfer trade power. Just for the sake of a "new mechanic with new DLC" checkbox.

Maybe im missing something or im overreacting, but mechanics from older DLCs seemed much more logical, interesting and needed than the new ones.
Inovation, army profesionalisam and this new trade steering are starting to form a trend. Is the DLC after this one going to introduce a Despotism value that reduces coring costs by 20% if you invest 2000 admin points in filling it up? Or a "pay war tribute for 10 years" peace option where the defeated nation needs to pay you 10% of there trade income + 10% of there taxes?

 

[Orkonkel]

The bonus is just insignificant compared to the effort it takes to get it, especially as it starts ticking down if your neighbours decide to tech way ahead of time.

 

[gia257]

For those that dont know, the next immersion pack anounced today brings with it a "inovation" stat. Basicaly, countries ahead of time on tech will start geting a discount to everything costing monarch points; up to 10%.

Firstly, much like army professionalism, its not obvious even if its worth it. You will probably need a few centuries of sacrifice to gain it. And then, in the last few hundred years, when you allready won and are massivley disinheriting rulers for stats and runing level 5 advisors you will get... basicaly 10% more monarch points?
Why? So that my coring costs in 1800 can be 85% reduced instead of 75% reduced?
Sure, a 10% discount on anything is better than not, but is it realy worth wasting monarch points at the start of the game when you need them the most so you can have slightly more points at a time when youre on top of the world?

Aditionaly, you can just wait a few years to get a tech discount from your neighbours being ahead of you: for military ideas this is certanly a bad choice, but laging 1-2 techs in administrative or diplomatic is similar in terms of savings as a 10% monarch point discount that you have to actualy work for.

Admitedly, I dont do any crazy power play stuff like starting as a sea tile and conquering the world or something. But for me Inovation seems incredibly weak, coming at a time I least need it.
I can easily get a 10-30% tech discount from neighbours with a spy network and by just being behind tech a little.
Yet im supposed to want Inovation cause if I buy tech when its 10% more monarch points I can get 10% more monarch points later?

Yes, I get that a spy network needs a diplomat. That the neighbouring tech discount is usualy 5-10%. That 10% less on all power costs is not the same as 10% less on tech cost.
But it seems like EU 4 is starting to pile on unimaginative mechanics that are duplicating each others effects or in direct contradiction to each other, just for the sake of "we got a new mechanic every patch".

One of the other selling points in the new Britannia DLC is "Trade Steering: Force your defeated enemies to have their merchants fill your coffers."
...Is this realy that different than the existing transfer trade power? Maybe im wrong and maybe it will be some awesome incredible feature, but I suspect it will just be slightly different but basicaly the same as transfer trade power. Just for the sake of a "new mechanic with new DLC" checkbox.

Maybe im missing something or im overreacting, but mechanics from older DLCs seemed much more logical, interesting and needed than the new ones.
Inovation, army profesionalisam and this new trade steering are starting to form a trend. Is the DLC after this one going to introduce a Despotism value that reduces coring costs by 20% if you invest 2000 admin points in filling it up? Or a "pay war tribute for 10 years" peace option where the defeated nation needs to pay you 10% of there trade income + 10% of there taxes?

its for tall play (as in opm runs an such), later on you will like the further extra discount on development, level 999 city here we go!
btw opm doesnt spend diplo on coring, diplo annexing, or harsh treatment, thats where the mana comes from because they surely wont have great avisors from the get go, you can get +3 every tech tier with a bonus every idea unlock, with each tier taking 13 years that means you will finish it in less than 130 years if you focus on it

although i agree on the disjoint mechanics

 

[Dakka]

Both of the features announced in today are rather.... bleh.

Innovation costs far too much to be worthwhile, and I doubt the amount of points you will have to waste to consistently tech ahead of time will be made back by the end of the game. So in best case it’s a minimal bonus at best and worst case it’s wasteful.

In regards to “Knowledge Sharing”: I can see it being nice to have in a cooperative multiplayer setting, but no real use past that. Receiving money from some downtrodden and backwards country is not worth it with the amount of money and worthlessness of said currency come mid-game, and al you are doing is assisting an AI catch up in tech.... something they currently have no issue keeping up with as it is now. You also can’t count on the AI doing it for you, much like “Influence Nation”, so it’s not something that can be taken into account on a strategic level either. Overall I see no point in it outside of just a way to help a teammate in MP.

Trade Steering I don’t want to comment on until we read the dedicated DD in case we assume something or miss out on some other detail.

 

[Ulmo]

I seriously think that we should gather our voices up so that some design changes happen or we will end up with a game full of shallow mechanics and nothing fundemental. ?

 

[icedt729]

I'm just not a fan of a mechanic that rewards you for getting ahead in tech by making it easier for you to stay ahead in tech.

 

[Bouchart]

I wonder if the Innovative idea set will be tweaked a little. Also the mechanic seems highly underwhelming. This could be the weakest DLC since Mare Nostrum.

 

[Less2]

The numbers on innovative in the dev diary are horrifically off and make it virtually impossible to accrue 100. Every AI country in the game would have <7 innovativeness across the entire period. So I assume the numbers are going to be tweaked before release.

In general I agree with OP though. Professionalism at least feels like something worth building up towards, Innovativeness significantly less so since higher level advisors means the MP cup overfloweth.

 

[Me_]

I think the reason the innovativeness is so unimportant is threefold:
First, it's a part of the immersion pack, which means that a number of players will not buy it and Paradox does not wan to make it seem like an obligatory buy.
Second, it's meant to reward already strong nations, HRE minors and Europeans in general. It is therefore made tame in fear of making powerful nations even more powerful.
Third, it's meant to be an English bonus, but without outright giving it to the English, hence the huge +50% modifier Anglican gets (such large values are rare in the game) but at the same time it's trying to avoid repeating the mistake of Third Rome of giving one nation gargantuan bonuses over others.

Overall, I agree that it feels unnecessary and meaningless. It is meant to reward good play and make crappy idea choices more viable, but I don't see how it could end up being meaningful in any way and the game already has plenty of variables that are meaningless and does not need more of those.

 

[Ninaran]

I am really confused why buffing big nations who can afford level 5 advisors even more was a choice they went for, but I'm sure they have a plan for this.

 

[Lor360]

its for tall play (as in opm runs an such), later on you will like the further extra discount on development, level 999 city here we go!
btw opm doesnt spend diplo on coring, diplo annexing, or harsh treatment, thats where the mana comes from because they surely wont have great avisors from the get go, you can get +3 every tech tier with a bonus every idea unlock, with each tier taking 13 years that means you will finish it in less than 130 years if you focus on it

although i agree on the disjoint mechanics

I dont see how this is for tall play at all, in fact I see it as a pretty big buff to playing wide and a indirect nerf to allready weak tall play.

Firstly, blobers prefer to stay ahead of time on military tech, sometimes significatly ahead if they plan on conquering world powers. For tall players sure, military is still a good idea, but if youre playing aliance games, colonizing or conquering primitive nations you can aford to take military tech when its at a 5% discount.

For Inovation you need to make mana to get it. If youre the bigest world power in 1600 you will probably be runing 3 level 5 advisors, disinheriting heris 4-5 times for awesome rulers and keeping power projection up for +1 MP in each category. If youre a minor nation you cant afford advisors, you have far less prestige from not conquering and not owning Rome/Jerusalem etc and you can easily find yourself not being able to win a war with rivals due to aliances, clunky positioning or having countries with 800 more development than you being your only eligible rivals.
And all that for 10% development cost?

1) You would be far better off laging behind on tech and saving mana for development that way.
2) You would be far better chasing after other development cost modifiers that are easier to get (and keep).

 

[Dingens]

Innovativeness is not supposed to make taking techs at 50% ahead of time suddenly worth it compared to taking it in time. The bonus is way too small for that, and it's good that it is - we don't need more large bonuses for just being ahead in tech. You already get the tech itself with all its bonuses, and the additional ahead of time bonus. That's enough.

This mechanic is about giving an incentive to actually be the FIRST if you are already running in the tech leader group. You might already always tech up at 30%-50% ahead of time costs, because you got that specific monarch power in excess, but now there's a reason for you to try and be the very first one to do so. Instead of giving the same trophy to the first 50 kids crossing the line, the first one now at least gets some extra chocolate for trying a little harder.

 

[Mortheim]

Oh, man, i'm blind c**t - created new thread.
Will just reposte my message lol.

So, with new DD we see ANOTHER feautre (that looks like line) with cap of 100. Now with even more absurd bonuses and flawed mechanics.
First, this bonus benefits states with some bonuses to rulers much more than others. Prussia, Ottomans and Mamluks are going nuts, while other pray for good enough roll. Thou i like that it helps republics and tall gameplay.
Second, it is tied to luck. You got good ruler - YAY, you can try to outtech others. Bad rulers - gg.
Third, the whole implementation and concept is lazy. Like, what it REALLY adds to gameplay? Additional power cost discount? No real need. Cool interesting interactions between advanced and less advanced countries? Not at all. You NEED TO PRESS TECHNOLOGY RIGHT NOW SO NO ONE WOULD BE FASTER THAN YOU. Wow. Innovative. I would be honest - i liked professionalism. It adds something to aim for in long run and forces you to think how to distribute your resources.
Fourth, i don't know how is this tied to anglican church and i doubt that it has any foundation behind it. Thou people who know English history can correct me.
Fifth, the absurdity of the bonus. All power cost discount of 10%. So, it is somewhat snowballing bonus. Yes, it will take long time to reach, but then, again, why would you need it? Late game is boring and you can play it either if you have long time goal, or you are...egh...well...trying WC i guess?

Your thoughts?


PS: if there is still no Pereslavl-Zalessky in Russia...

 

[tom025]

But it seems like EU 4 is starting to pile on unimaginative mechanics that are duplicating each others effects or in direct contradiction to each other, just for the sake of "we got a new mechanic every patch".

One of the other selling points in the new Britannia DLC is "Trade Steering: Force your defeated enemies to have their merchants fill your coffers."
...Is this realy that different than the existing transfer trade power? Maybe im wrong and maybe it will be some awesome incredible feature, but I suspect it will just be slightly different but basicaly the same as transfer trade power. Just for the sake of a "new mechanic with new DLC" checkbox.

Maybe im missing something or im overreacting, but mechanics from older DLCs seemed much more logical, interesting and needed than the new ones.
Inovation, army profesionalisam and this new trade steering are starting to form a trend.

It's exactly my feeling about this DLC.
For the last DLC I was against army professionalism (make no sence that you have army professionalism AND army tradition).
And the new innovativeness thing and the "new" transfer trade power thing, I dont know what to think about, its bad and uninspired...

 

[tom025]

I wonder if the Innovative idea set will be tweaked a little. Also the mechanic seems highly underwhelming. This could be the weakest DLC since Mare Nostrum.

You forget "Res publica"

 

[Lor360]

Innovativeness is not supposed to make taking techs at 50% ahead of time suddenly worth it compared to taking it in time. The bonus is way too small for that, and it's good that it is - we don't need more large bonuses for just being ahead in tech. You already get the tech itself with all its bonuses, and the additional ahead of time bonus. That's enough.

This mechanic is about giving an incentive to actually be the FIRST if you are already running in the tech leader group. You might already always tech up at 30%-50% ahead of time costs, because you got that specific monarch power in excess, but now there's a reason for you to try and be the very first one to do so. Instead of giving the same trophy to the first 50 kids crossing the line, the first one now at least gets some extra chocolate for trying a little harder.

But is it realy in any way worth it? You dont know when exactly the others might take it so you realisticaly have to get that tech at atleast 30% ahead of time. And are you realy going to take random admin and diplo techs at a 30% cost? Why?

I get the concept of "some extra chocolate for trying a little harder" but youre allready on your way to the chocolate store and youre being given a option of trading your chocolate for a bit less chocolate if youre planing on getting chocolate.
What if Innovativeness was only 5% power costs, would you still justify it as a feature?

I love Paradox developers, they make awesome games but sometimes people need to be called out when they start being a bit silly.
What if in the DLC after this one we get "Majestification - you get -3% army maitenance cost for every continent you fully control"?
When does a bonus stop being something that changes your playstyle and start being silly?

 

[Sfan]

Well I commented your new thread, so I repost too:

What I don't get is indeed that monarch points pressure only exist for countries who start small in ROTW and try to blob. Everyone else drown in MP once you know how to make money, disinherit and abuse estates. So the cost reduction will have very little impact, besides allowing for an even more absurd and uneffective development if you try to play tall.
That's the first time I hit disagree with a dev diary, because I don't see how I'll ever benefit from this mechanic. Especially with how unlikely it is you hit a tech first unless you don't do anything with your points, with the AI Ottomans usually teching mil 6 years ahead of time because they don't know what to do with their monarch points.

 

[Brynjar]

One of the other selling points in the new Britannia DLC is "Trade Steering: Force your defeated enemies to have their merchants fill your coffers."
...Is this realy that different than the existing transfer trade power? Maybe im wrong and maybe it will be some awesome incredible feature, but I suspect it will just be slightly different but basicaly the same as transfer trade power. Just for the sake of a "new mechanic with new DLC" checkbox.

It's fairly different, and sounds a lot more useful. Transfer trade power is only useful if the target have significant trade power in your home node or nodes you already have your own merchants. Trade steering will let you take money from nodes you don't have merchants in yourself. How useful trade steering is will depend on several things though, such as duration and truce length.

 

[Lor360]

It's fairly different, and sounds a lot more useful. Transfer trade power is only useful if the target have significant trade power in your home node or nodes you already have your own merchants. Trade steering will let you take money from nodes you don't have merchants in yourself. How useful trade steering is will depend on several things though, such as duration and truce length.

Thats my point; its only slightly different.
What would be the downside if trade steering and transfer trade power where both introduced in Wealth of Nations as "trade dominating" - the country has signed a treaty giving us domination over its trade. Take trade money from a node if you dont have a mechant there, or take even more if you do have a merchant.

Its presenting a existing concept as a brand new mechanic awesome enough to be listed as a feature on the anouncement page.

I agree it might be situationaly more usefull than transfer trade power in terms of numbers.

But it smells of "we introduced military acess for infantry and cavalry in Art of War. New feature announced for Britannia: army movement treaties! They allow military acess for artilery, manchu banners and mercenaries!

 

[Sfan]

Well, technically it's completely different, because you don't need an extra merchant to do it. That's the only part of the expansion that really appeals to me. You can ask ROTW nations to steer trade and you'll get trade income without the need of mechants. Transferring TP means you need a merchant there to use the TP.