Is the HRE a bit funny at the moment?

[richelieu1628]

On my local version, I set the AI to not fabricate claims inside the HRE. I think it works, but I can't check because my computer can't even run Minesweeper.

Care to share the lines of code? Although I suspect the conquest mission against rivals does most of the harm here.

Yesterday, I increased the AE multiplier from 0.5 to 0.95 (scared of going over 1 because I don't know if that computes), and it did create a good amount of intra-HRE coalitions. Still, the AI emperor seems very reluctant to enforce liberation CBs, even when not busy otherwise.

Btw, about countries taking their cores out of or into the HRE. I suspect this is too much work for something relatively small, but historically core removal seems to be a function of the following variables: hate the Emperor (+), catholic (--), protestant (++), powerful (+). So Netherlands formally leave the HRE, and provinces that stay part of France eventually leave the HRE, everything else pretty much stays the same.

 

[jrgen3]

Care to share the lines of code? Although I suspect the conquest mission against rivals does most of the harm here.

Yes, it's in defines.lua line 539 and 540.

	DIPLOMATIC_ACTION_FABRICATE_CLAIM_HRE_FACTOR = 0.75,
	DIPLOMATIC_ACTION_FABRICATE_CLAIM_HRE_EMPEROR_FACTOR = 0.5,

to

	DIPLOMATIC_ACTION_FABRICATE_CLAIM_HRE_FACTOR = 0.00,
	DIPLOMATIC_ACTION_FABRICATE_CLAIM_HRE_EMPEROR_FACTOR = 0.00,

As I said, I don't know if it actually works as my PC is extremely slow and unstable.

About the missions, I agree. I really think they should not be possible inside the HRE.

 

[richelieu1628]

Yes, it's in defines.lua line 539 and 540.

	DIPLOMATIC_ACTION_FABRICATE_CLAIM_HRE_FACTOR = 0.75,
	DIPLOMATIC_ACTION_FABRICATE_CLAIM_HRE_EMPEROR_FACTOR = 0.5,

Thanks, and well spotted.

The missions themselves should be easy enough to edit - just add a HRE = no condition, I'm sure that's possible. I might just try and do that (I'm not very experienced so I always fuss about writing complicated things from scratch for fear of messing things up and not even realizing it).

I actually think that the best way to go would be to leave the fabricating as is for members (so that there is some warfare going on, and some aggression, too), but turn off emperor fabricating, turn off conquest missions, and massively up the AE penalty. Now if only there was a way to prioritize the HR Emperor's pursuit of liberation CBs...

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
The borders of the empire remained static for the entire time line of EUIV. The only changes were states gaining independence from the Empire.

Not quite. Ignoring states that gained independance (e.g. Switzerland, Netherlands) the HRE gained Flanders from France, lost Provence to France, made Hamburg a Free Imperial City despite the protests of Denmark in 1510 and in 1530 the Emperor accepted Prussia as his vassal in the empire despite Prussia being outside the Empire
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstage_zu_Augsburg#1500

Oh and the HRE lost the left bank of the Rhine to Napoleonic France.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Why?

Because for example Denmark held lands that were part of the HRE (Holstein, Oldenburg) and so Denmark had a seat in imperial administration of the northern "Reichskreis". Poland once held lands that in the games timeframe belonged to the HRE, England ruled Hanover in personal union, the Netherlands ruled Luxemburg in personal union...

Again, why? Just because a human does?

No because Burgundy and Venice historically did so. Burgundy grew from a duchy in France to a grand duchy that held lands both as vassal of the french king and lands as vassals of the HRE Emperor and became so powerful that it managed to negotiate an end of homage to the french king (effectively becoming an independant state outside france while formally still being part of france) and even *almost* managed to get a king´s crown and the hand of his daughter from the Emperor.

Venice actually already left the Eastern Roman Empire when that was declining and tried to stay independant from the HRE too. And ruling areas in and outside of the HRE it would make sense for them to get all of them outside and be fully independant.

 

[jrgen3]

Not quite. Ignoring states that gained independance (e.g. Switzerland, Netherlands) the HRE gained Flanders from France,

Ok, I forgot about this one.

lost Provence to France

They lost Lorraine to France as well. What I should have said in my last post was "The only changes were states gaining independence from the Empire and areas lost to foreign powers.", but you are right about Flanders.

made Hamburg a Free Imperial City despite the protests of Denmark in 1510

It was part of the empire before this as well.

in 1530 the Emperor accepted Prussia as his vassal in the empire despite Prussia being outside the Empire

Like you said, it was never part of the empire.

 

[Hakairyu]

... Which is historically correct. Those areas were never added to the Empire. The borders of the empire remained static for the entire time line of EUIV. The only changes were states gaining independence from the Empire.

Historically, maybe so. But why exactly would the AI not do these things, making it much less efficient compared to a player? Either the player should not be able to join or take land out either, which would be a horrible solution as it would lock up a functional mechanic as if the rest of the game went entirely historically (in fact, this game is supposed to simulate alternate scenarios instead of having the player as the only thing in the game that diverts from historicity, as that would become pretty repetitive. I saw Münster hold Finnmark and Reyjkavik, and nothing else in Norway once, and I still have no idea how that happened.), or the AI should have a chance to do what the player does. But nope, the AI has no understanding of this mechanic, and acts like it ain't a thing. And why would Austria not add Hungary to the HRE anyway? In this game's point of view, it's like him saying "look guys, I expanded the Empire. Will you accept vassalage now?"

 

[Incompetent]

There are basically two ways the Empire can go.

If the Emperor is weak/lazy/distracted, a feeding frenzy ensues just like anywhere else where there are lots of OPMs. (This used to be moderated by AE, but now AE is not a big factor any more.)

If the Emperor is strong and active, he will defend/liberate the minor princes against the predators (plus he will maybe eat a few HRE minors himself, usually by diplomatic means). The other medium powers in and around the HRE give him plenty of opportunities to do this, as it seems the AI does not pay enough respect to unlawful territory requests or to an Enforce Peace (the latter is particularly stupid, as saying no *guarantees* you will end up at war with a far superior power). The result is that he racks up tons of Imperial Authority, passes all the reforms, and the HRE minors disappear anyway into a big blob marked 'Holy Roman Empire'. I suppose the AI can stuff this up by failing to appoint enough electors, but that should be fixed soon (I'm pretty sure the AI appointed electors promptly in previous versions).

Either way, the HRE as it exists in 1444 is unsustainable (except by a deliberate effort on the part of a human player) and the HRE minors are doomed. It's just a question of how long it takes to devolve into a more stable blobby state.

 

[JOD]

The Empire seems to only have to forms. Super dominant Austria or the a Germany comprised of 4-5 blobs.

The the Emperor does have a mechanic to keep blobbing in check but that mechanic has a severe limitation :neither the Emperor nor the target can be at war. Since the first 50 years of Austria's game play tends to be non-stop defensive wars, she just can't exercise that mechanic and the AI is smart enough to know that the best time to expand in the empire is while Austria is busy. It, wisely, takes full advantage of that fact. Between Aragon (over Corsica) Denmark +Sweden/Norway (a fight Austria frequently losses actually) and the constant threat of Burgundy and France, both of which can easily match her blow for blow or double team her for a curbstomp. In this scenario, you will almost always end up with the 4-5 blob empire. Ai Austria just doesn't have the manpower/money management skills to fight those battles and still patrol the minors.

Now if the Burgundian succession triggers, especially if it triggers early, Austria tends to go on a vassal spree/ liberation spree and end up with half of the empire subjugated or allied. This tends to be the games where she forms the HRE.

I think some of the internal balance of the HRE do need working if only because it seems to sway to strongly to extremes.

 

[richelieu1628]

There are basically two ways the Empire can go.

I think that's probably a fair assessment of the problem.

And that kind of defeats the whole point of having the HRE in the game. It's meant to slow down the agglomeration to a crawl, it's not meant to be a blob slingshot for the Emperor or just another place full of blobbing small countries. IMO there should be no way that the Emperor can reform the HRE before the Reformation, and the earliest path to HRE nationhood should be via winning the 30yrs war.

 

[Incompetent]

I think that's probably a fair assessment of the problem.

And that kind of defeats the whole point of having the HRE in the game. It's meant to slow down the agglomeration to a crawl, it's not meant to be a blob slingshot for the Emperor or just another place full of blobbing small countries. IMO there should be no way that the Emperor can reform the HRE before the Reformation, and the earliest path to HRE nationhood should be via winning the 30yrs war.

I think the real problem is that Imperial reforms are more or less a one-way track to the super-blob. It should be possible to pass all the reforms by the end of the game, but only with a *consistently* powerful and active Emperor. Other powers should have much better options for not just halting, but reversing the reform train if the Emperor drops the ball or if a weak Emperor is elected. For example:

- The 'revoke reform' peace demand should be much cheaper.
- It should be possible HRE countries to take a formal diplomatic stance in favour of revocation of reforms. The AI is increasingly likely to do this as the reforms build up. Electors will give voting bonuses/penalties on this basis. If too many members want to revoke, a kind of coalition war can start (even after Ewiger Landfriede).
- The Emperor should be able to revoke reforms voluntarily if the current level of reform is unpopular in the Empire, and automatically if he was formally in favour of revocation at the point of being elected. (It should be a viable tactic for anti-reform candidates to try to get elected Emperor, even if they can't hope to hold onto the crown forever.)
- Every time a reform is passed, everyone who voted no should get a temporary CB to revoke.
- If a lot of reforms have been passed, the Emperor should be susceptible to rebels (Reactionary? Noble?) who want to reverse the reforms.

There are also ways in which life ought to be made harder for the Emperor. Number 1 is that the Reformation needs to hit much harder than it does at the moment, with 'Enforce Religious Unity' becoming effectively useless once there is a critical mass of heretics.

 

[varietygamer]

If by funny you mean stompy, then yes. In our recent multi games HRE keeps rampaging across europe crushing everyone.

 

[T-wester]

Because for example Denmark held lands that were part of the HRE (Holstein, Oldenburg) and so Denmark had a seat in imperial administration of the northern "Reichskreis".

the king of denmark was the ruler of the Duchies slesvig and holstein but it wasn't a fully integrated part of the kingdom, with the danish king being his own vassal in slesvig and in a personal union that wasn't allowed to be anexed in holstein. It wasn't till the end of the holy roman empire the duchies was incorporated in the danish realm much to the displeasure of the germans in these areas.

 

[LapuLapu]

I think we need and will get a HRE expansion.
....For example AI doesn't care if the emporer gets a CB on them if they annex a neighbour... And the demand imperial province diplo-action doesn't work, because they begin to core the annexed province in an instant....A strong emporer should be respected by its minors.

You could have been talking about me and my Hansa game, then I realized you were talking about the AI. Got to say, I haven't respected Austria one bit through the years, but the minute they DID go to war with me, I was quick to sue for peace.

 

[richelieu1628]

I think what throws me a bit about the HRE performance at the moment is that most of the mechanics of getting it right seem to have been in place in EU3 already. All these limits on CBs and expansion, events firing, etc, you could almost just go and look into the EU3 files and copy/paste some of that stuff over. So yeah, probably there will be an expansion at some point to deal with all of this properly.

One thing I really like about EU4 is that finally you have a proper Spain forming, and you have the Burgundian inheritance working properly, so there is a real feel of big power balancing in Europe, which is great. The HRE and its relation with the emperor being a bit funny is a shame, because otherwise this could be the best EU European experience since forever (in my view, of course).

 

[Alerias]

Yeah the HRE can be a bit blobby internally. Until I become Emperor and force-release everyone for that sweet, sweet Authority.

 

[Alerias]

One thing I really like about EU4 is that finally you have a proper Spain forming

In some games anyway

AI Iberia circa 1585 in my current game.

 

[richelieu1628]

In some games anyway

AI Iberia circa 1585 in my current game.

To be fair, Russian Ceuta is slightly more mind-boggling in that picture...

 

[unmerged(752433)]

The one thing that seems to be common in all my games is the inability or refusal or something of the Emperor to enact reforms. In some cases, we're in the late 1600's, with Austria having been the Emperor the entire time with only one or maybe two reforms passed.

 

[Tom013]

The one thing that seems to be common in all my games is the inability or refusal or something of the Emperor to enact reforms. In some cases, we're in the late 1600's, with Austria having been the Emperor the entire time with only one or maybe two reforms passed.

As some have mentioned earlier in this thread, one problem that seems to be plaguing the AI HRE in recent versions is the emperor's aversion to appointing new electors. Less than 7 electors = IA is constantly being drained. Then add to that the fact that an emperor can't appoint a new elector at 0 authority anyway... I've watched a lot of games where the empire stalls out after the first reform because one or two electors get absorbed and the emperor never appoints a replacement. IA never gets much higher than 15 at that point.