Is the HRE a bit funny at the moment?

[richelieu1628]

I have to admit I haven't been playing huuge hours lately, so I'm just throwing this out there to hear what you guys are seeing. I'd rather not start another HRE game to find after 100 years that the mechanics just aren't right at the minute.

So what I've been finding is that there is a strange amount of HRE-internal blobbing going on, to the extent that after the first century, you basically have 4 big players left, sort of Germany post-Napoleon-style. A giant OPM feeding frenzy with a few very big piranhas left over at the end. As far as I can tell, a lot of this is caused by conquest cb missions firing pretty regularly. At the same time, encroachment of non-HRE countries seems to be under control, because the Emperor does defend OPMs on a regular basis.

So what's odd about this is that a) there seems to be no mechanism to keep HRE countries from eating non-core provinces and b) the Emperor never seems to demand release of annexed princes or else go to war in defence of the status quo.

I'd be happy to tweak the files a bit, but not quite sure how to do that without affecting all sorts of non-HRE mechanics. Obviously I like the challenge of a massively blobbing Ottoman Empire, so I don't want to tweak things to limit expansion period.

On that note, does anyone know what AE_HRE_INTERNAL does in defines.lua? I don't know if dialling it up or down means more AE for HRE gobbling up, but it seems like the sort of thing that would piss the HR Emperor off enough to do something, right?

Thanks a lot!

 

[RScratch]

In my game as Saxony the HRE looked nearly the same after 125 years...

 

[praguepride]

It really rises and falls with the strength and aggressiveness of the Emperor. If say Emp is Austria and they get big and bad then the Empire stays pretty static.

If the emperor gets weakened then the AI senses that and the power players start feeding.

 

[Murmeldjuret]

I have seen it get pretty historical, and also seen Salzburg-Hamburg DOW Austria (larger than france together), but I'm inclined to agree with OP that it tends to blob more than it could historically. The german states were more inclined to form factions, than to outright conquer your neighbour, which would have immense political fallout. I think adding a federation mechanic to HRE would be an improvement. The conquer event does tend to be a bit powerful, especially in early game, as it seems to fire often for rivals, (and everbody has their 3 rivals).

 

[richelieu1628]

Interesting... I'm not surprised that people's experiences are different, and after all you see what you're looking for. My n is very small.

That said, the dynamics do seem off at the moment. I don't even know if there still is an "unlawful province" CB for the HRE, I think there's only one for HRE countries annexed outright...

 

[RobRoy3]

Yes, a couple of the changes since 1.4 seem to lead to more intra-HRE blobbing. That's been my experience, as well. I don't mind blobbing, per se, but I did kind of like the fact that the HRE seemed more resistant to it, in previous patches. Oh well.

Some people have also reported the Emperor doesn't appoint new electors when that blobbing leads to elector elimination. Haven't experience this myself, though.

 

[Tom013]

Interesting... I'm not surprised that people's experiences are different, and after all you see what you're looking for. My n is very small.

That said, the dynamics do seem off at the moment. I don't even know if there still is an "unlawful province" CB for the HRE, I think there's only one for HRE countries annexed outright...

There is one. While playing as Austria, I pretty much bludgeoned every little Prince and his brother into submission over their expansion wars. I think I actually had MORE princes by 1525 than the empire started with...

Yes, a couple of the changes since 1.4 seem to lead to more intra-HRE blobbing. That's been my experience, as well. I don't mind blobbing, per se, but I did kind of like the fact that the HRE seemed more resistant to it, in previous patches. Oh well.

Some people have also reported the Emperor doesn't appoint new electors when that blobbing leads to elector elimination. Haven't experience this myself, though.

Possibly the reduced AE in 1.4? It wasn't nearly as reduced within the HRE as without, but it still seems to have reduced the rapidity of coalitions forming to dismantle HRE Prince blobs.

 

[mareino]

I am currently playing as Emperor through Brandenburg. I agree that tons of Conquest CB's are firing. Oddly, the victims hardly ever call me to defend them, even though I have a good sized army and positive relations with basically everyone in the HRE. I've been forced to wait for the would-be blobber to complete the annexation, and then reverse it using the Liberation CB.

 

[Kraxis]

My experience is sort of the same (lots of blobbing), but not entirely.

I usually have a big northwestern state, it doesn't matter which one, but it seems that area is a bit domino. A couple of semi-big central powers, usually Hesse and The Palatinate, a strong eastern power, usually Pommerania or Saxony and then Bavaria and Austria in the south. In between these powers and to the west you find the smaller states, like Mainz (I'm surprised at how good they are at surviving), Lorraine and Cologne. But there is a lot of expansion going on on the inside, especially by Austria and the northwestern states.

 

[Phelan]

I think we need and will get a HRE expansion.

There is so much going wrong there. For example AI doesn't care if the emporer gets a CB on them if they annex a neighbour. Litte Ulm always attacks... A game as Emporer is really tedious, as you have to declare war all the time on almost every minor the restore a prince again. Even if you beat them for the 3rd time they don't get it. And the demand imperial province diplo-action doesn't work, because they begin to core the annexed province in an instant, so the emporer gets the -50 'making it a core' modifier. So little Ulm will go to war for one province with mighty austria because they have spent the admin points to core it? This stuff must be changed. A strong emporer should be respected by its minors. If they have a big ally they can do it, but not with 4000 infantry units.

 

[richelieu1628]

I think we need and will get a HRE expansion.

There is so much going wrong there. For example AI doesn't care if the emporer gets a CB on them if they annex a neighbour. Litte Ulm always attacks... A game as Emporer is really tedious, as you have to declare war all the time on almost every minor the restore a prince again. Even if you beat them for the 3rd time they don't get it. And the demand imperial province diplo-action doesn't work, because they begin to core the annexed province in an instant, so the emporer gets the -50 'making it a core' modifier. So little Ulm will go to war for one province with mighty austria because they have spent the admin points to core it? This stuff must be changed. A strong emporer should be respected by its minors. If they have a big ally they can do it, but not with 4000 infantry units.

All of this looks very familiar... so tweaking the AE values wouldn't deal with it directly, but could it help limiting it at least?

 

[Phelan]

I think it depends on the ability of the ai to calculate the AE impact on other nations. I don't know for sure if or how they do it. If they really consider AE a factor in peace deals, it could help in the short run, but it would destabilze the game as a whole.

 

[zodium]

I think we need and will get a HRE expansion.

There is so much going wrong there. For example AI doesn't care if the emporer gets a CB on them if they annex a neighbour. Litte Ulm always attacks... A game as Emporer is really tedious, as you have to declare war all the time on almost every minor the restore a prince again. Even if you beat them for the 3rd time they don't get it. And the demand imperial province diplo-action doesn't work, because they begin to core the annexed province in an instant, so the emporer gets the -50 'making it a core' modifier. So little Ulm will go to war for one province with mighty austria because they have spent the admin points to core it? This stuff must be changed. A strong emporer should be respected by its minors. If they have a big ally they can do it, but not with 4000 infantry units.

I think the HRE design is fine as it is, it just needs to have the holes plugged and a little polish. Having to go to war all the time to defend the empire, release small princes, etc. is the best part of HRE mechanics! It's the only role in the game where you're really behaviorally engaged every game day until you pass Landfriede.

Instead of a HRE expansion, I want to see HRE mechanics generalized to create dynamic empires.

 

[jrgen3]

On my local version, I set the AI to not fabricate claims inside the HRE. I think it works, but I can't check because my computer can't even run Minesweeper.

 

[Phelan]

I think the HRE design is fine as it is, it just needs to have the holes plugged and a little polish. Having to go to war all the time to defend the empire, release small princes, etc. is the best part of HRE mechanics! It's the only role in the game where you're really behaviorally engaged every game day until you pass Landfriede.

Instead of a HRE expansion, I want to see HRE mechanics generalized to create dynamic empires.

Defending the empire from outsider is one thing, fighting every minor in the HRE because they are not smart enought to know that they did not have a chance, is no fun at all.

 

[aitaituo]

On my local version, I set the AI to not fabricate claims inside the HRE. I think it works, but I can't check because my computer can't even run Minesweeper.

Claims fabrication has always been the problem with HRE blobbing. In EU3, Princes couldn't get generic conquest missions against each other and obviously couldn't fabricate claims.

 

[Hakairyu]

While not directly related to this, I also don't see the people outside of it ever do anything about the HRE's borders. Poland and Denmark should at least have a dice roll chance to join it, while Burgundy and Venice should actively take their cores out of the empire. I don't think I even saw Austria add its integrated hungarian lands into the empire for the IA boost. The empire's borders remain the exact same, until and unless the player intervenes.

 

[jrgen3]

Poland and Denmark should at least have a dice roll chance to join it, while Burgundy and Venice should actively take their cores out of the empire.

I agree with Venice and Burgundy taking their cores in the empire.

I don't think I even saw Austria add its integrated hungarian lands into the empire for the IA boost.

... Which is historically correct. Those areas were never added to the Empire.

The empire's borders remain the exact same, until and unless the player intervenes.

The borders of the empire remained static for the entire time line of EUIV. The only changes were states gaining independence from the Empire.

Claims fabrication has always been the problem with HRE blobbing. In EU3, Princes couldn't get generic conquest missions against each other and obviously couldn't fabricate claims.

Yes, I actually liked it better in EUIII where the HRE didn't end up as a blobbing party after 15 years. The imperial non cored province ownership penalty was also a lot more hurting.

 

[chameloid]

Yes, a couple of the changes since 1.4 seem to lead to more intra-HRE blobbing. That's been my experience, as well. I don't mind blobbing, per se, but I did kind of like the fact that the HRE seemed more resistant to it, in previous patches. Oh well.

Some people have also reported the Emperor doesn't appoint new electors when that blobbing leads to elector elimination. Haven't experience this myself, though.

So in your games there are always seven electors and reforms are being passed?

I've seen a coupla instances in LPs (e.g. Shen's and Arumba's CoP ones of late) where electors do not get replaced and barely any reforms are passed.

 

[RobRoy3]

Poland and Denmark should at least have a dice roll chance to join it.

Why?

Burgundy and Venice should actively take their cores out of the empire.

Again, why? Just because a human does?

I don't think I even saw Austria add its integrated hungarian lands into the empire for the IA boost. The empire's borders remain the exact same, until and unless the player intervenes.

Nor have I, but I don't see that as a problem. Frankly, I don't really mind that the HRE mechanics are easily abusable by a player, and aren't really exploited as much as they can be by the AI. The AI still does a reasonable job of forming the HRE within its existing borders and makes a pretty scary end-game boss, if left unchecked (well, at least they did pretty effectively before 1.4, the same blobbing seems to slow them down a bit, especially if the Burgundian inheritance doesn't go through)