TIL, thank you, that actually does change things a lot at later stages of the game. Hmmmm.... I guess the goods produced modifier from TC cares about the ratio of provincial trade and total trade power in the node? Then that would explain the collect/transfer disparity since collecting in a non home gives a multiplicative 50% penalty to the total trade power.
Is the "Go to India for money, then play the rest of the game" strategy still valid?
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TIL, thank you, that actually does change things a lot at later stages of the game. Hmmmm.... I guess the goods produced modifier from TC cares about the ratio of provincial trade and total trade power in the node? Then that would explain the collect/transfer disparity since collecting in a non home gives a multiplicative 50% penalty to the total trade power.
Well I thought you mention some goods just as an example of high value goods, but looking closely there are interesting effects, too. I copy wiki here for other's references.
Gems: trade in bonus, per province bonus:
| +0.05% Yearly inflation reduction | +15% Local tax modifier |
Papers
| −5% Administrative technology cost | −10% Local state maintenance |
Glass:
| −5% Diplomatic technology cost | +10% Local production efficiency |
I guess coal should be states too:
| +10% Goods produced | −20% Local state maintenance |
Trade goods - Europa Universalis 4 Wiki
The reason I mentioned gems/paper/glass is they double the effect of state houses, so a state house + town center makes full states have 10% GC cost.Well I thought you mention some goods just as an example of high value goods, but looking closely there are interesting effects, too. I copy wiki here for other's references.
Gems: trade in bonus, per province bonus:
+0.05% Yearly inflation reduction +15% Local tax modifier
Papers
−5% Administrative technology cost −10% Local state maintenance
Glass:
−5% Diplomatic technology cost +10% Local production efficiency
I guess coal should be states too:
+10% Goods produced −20% Local state maintenance
Trade goods - Europa Universalis 4 Wiki
eu4.paradoxwikis.com
Gold is just worth a lot, so you'll want it in full states regardless.
Oh well, it is the State House. I read too much a thread on 1.7M monthly trade income and never build them.
By the way, it is hard to get the income like that in the real role play mid games, though many principles can be applied (I get about 500 trade income monthly from Zanzibar to America with no India no China).
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I am digging more on trade company, from wiki 1.27? at the end of this post.
So while the TC goods produced don't get boosted by TC. The production income did get boosted, -40% instead of -80% of territory. And there are no effect of non-accepted culture to boost manpower and tax, then there are effective TC buildings to boost more. The TC buildings is cheap and use no slot!
the down side is TC get governing cost increase +25% vs territory. It is OK with that unless you go for world conquest ( I didn't know about WC)
So on non accepted culture and not gold, it is designed to get TC as much as you can. That's why Paradox has a button to add all the applicable provinces to a TC. I tested it, it didn't un-state a province to add them, states remains states.
On the few accepted culture provinces, make them states and try to build manpower, by building Soldier House on Grain, instead of Farm Estate.
The territory and vassals are what you dump the new conquered provinces into to wait for admin point and consideration later. I try blobing fast and the territories number soon double the numbers of states, because admin points is saved for new conquer and keep up with techs and admin ideas.
State is the best with at least an accepted culture or state religion, but will have the state maintainance. Most of the trade company are designed with Europe in mind, so if your capital is in Asia, you may want some core states in nearby TC regions. Get at least one province on each TC to build the TC Special Building..
Extra tips: if you want to conquer China, you may want to take Mandate of Heaven first, it give free core, free claims on all China, and much less AE on Unifying China CB
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Effects of trade companies[edit]
Trade company regions.
Provinces in a trade company are subject to the following modifiers (additive as usual):[1]
Additionally, trade company provinces:
Strategy[edit]
Trade company penalties[edit]
Regarding the penalties of trade company:
Other benefits not specified in-game include:
As adding a province to a trade company doubles the local trade power, and at the same time if a trade company controls more than 51% of the trade powers in its trade node, the owner gains an extra merchant,
centers of trade and
estuaries which give flat bonuses to base local trade power are of greater importance to trade companies than other provinces of similar
development. Constructing trade buildings (and if finances allow, manufactories) in these provinces are valuable for the same reasons. Increasing
mercantilism can also help wrestling trade controls for trade companies as each point of
mercantilism adds 2% of provincial trade power.
So while the TC goods produced don't get boosted by TC. The production income did get boosted, -40% instead of -80% of territory. And there are no effect of non-accepted culture to boost manpower and tax, then there are effective TC buildings to boost more. The TC buildings is cheap and use no slot!
the down side is TC get governing cost increase +25% vs territory. It is OK with that unless you go for world conquest ( I didn't know about WC)
So on non accepted culture and not gold, it is designed to get TC as much as you can. That's why Paradox has a button to add all the applicable provinces to a TC. I tested it, it didn't un-state a province to add them, states remains states.
On the few accepted culture provinces, make them states and try to build manpower, by building Soldier House on Grain, instead of Farm Estate.
The territory and vassals are what you dump the new conquered provinces into to wait for admin point and consideration later. I try blobing fast and the territories number soon double the numbers of states, because admin points is saved for new conquer and keep up with techs and admin ideas.
State is the best with at least an accepted culture or state religion, but will have the state maintainance. Most of the trade company are designed with Europe in mind, so if your capital is in Asia, you may want some core states in nearby TC regions. Get at least one province on each TC to build the TC Special Building..
Extra tips: if you want to conquer China, you may want to take Mandate of Heaven first, it give free core, free claims on all China, and much less AE on Unifying China CB
---------
Effects of trade companies[edit]
Trade company regions.
Provinces in a trade company are subject to the following modifiers (additive as usual):[1]
| +100% | Local trade power | |
| +0.5 | Naval force limit | |
| −200% | Local missionary strength | |
| +10% | Institution spread | |
| +25% | Province governing cost |
- Have minimum autonomy set to 80%
- Are affected by the
minimum autonomy in Territories modifier - For
Production income the local autonomy effect is halved - Ignore all penalties from
intolerance of the local religion or an
unaccepted culture.- Negated penalties include
local unrest,
local tax, and
goods produced. - Positive bonuses to
local unrest from tolerated heretics are kept.
- Negated penalties include
- Do not contribute to
religious unity, regardless of religion. - Do not have the embraced institutions of their owner spread to them. However, institutions may still spread through adjacency.
-
Allow centers of trade to be upgraded.
Strategy[edit]
Trade company penalties[edit]
| Please help with verifying or updating this section. It was last verified for version 1.27. |
- The reduction in
tax -- sometimes
manpower and
sailors as well -- are counteracted by the removal of
unaccepted culture penalties and
autonomy penalties. The autonomy modifiers are applied multiplicatively after base tax/manpower/sailor has been modified by additive modifiers such as culture and trade company modifiers. Thus, as long as the additive modifiers do not sum to or below zero -- tax is usually helped by national modifiers -- the tax amount reduced by the -100% penalty is often mitigated by half from removal of culture and autonomy penalties. - (
DLC required) Various Trade Company Investments can mitigate the initial tax/manpower/sailor penalty. (Manpower and sailor investments are under “Governance”. As of 1.27, Governance investments are "hidden" in-game with a side scroll.)
|
| Please help with verifying or updating this section. It was last verified for version 1.27. |
- Trade Company provinces do not count towards Religious Unity. Thus, creating trade companies is a good alternative to religious conversion.
- Since trade company provinces do not gain embraced institution spread modifier, adding newly conquered provinces to Trade Company can be a strategy to slow down institution spread and thus maintaining tech advantage over Asian and African countries (or even Europe for non European countries).
- The lower governing capacity cost of the province could be useful when conquering huge amount of provinces (india or china for example).
|
| Please help with verifying or updating this section. It was last verified for version 1.27. |
centers of trade and
estuaries which give flat bonuses to base local trade power are of greater importance to trade companies than other provinces of similar
development. Constructing trade buildings (and if finances allow, manufactories) in these provinces are valuable for the same reasons. Increasing
mercantilism can also help wrestling trade controls for trade companies as each point of
mercantilism adds 2% of provincial trade power.
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This reminds me of what I think is my weakest area of gameplay and why my one tags tend to be late, where are you coming up with the monarch points to research techs and still get to 5-8k dev prior to imperialism?
5k development is 50,000 administrative power for states, 25000 for only territory cores. Even if we state minimally and spend 30k base, administrative takes it to 22,500 (ideas themselves cost admin however). There is also tech, unless you want to tank the corruption money (cuts into money for better advisers).
Even if you focus admin and average 12 points/mo, JUST the 22,500 would take 156 years to reach. Still need points for tech (12000 base, another 83 years before discounts), stability, and ideas. And at least some of the expansion would be pre-administrative ideas.
12 points/mo is pretty optimistic too, base with admin focus is 5/mo, so you'd need 7 from ruler skill + advisers + estate. Even with above average ruler luck you need to also average level 2 admin adviser while using the estate for monarch points.
The math is a lot less brutal if you have CCR NIs to stack with administrative, or razing. You can also get at least some work done by annexing subjects, though I get the impression that most players aren't getting 1k+ dev from that before imperialism too often...and unless you have a good CB a lot of DIP will go into peace deals.
What am I missing? Unless I'm running CCR tags it's constant monarch point strap other than MIL.
5k development is 50,000 administrative power for states, 25000 for only territory cores. Even if we state minimally and spend 30k base, administrative takes it to 22,500 (ideas themselves cost admin however). There is also tech, unless you want to tank the corruption money (cuts into money for better advisers).
Even if you focus admin and average 12 points/mo, JUST the 22,500 would take 156 years to reach. Still need points for tech (12000 base, another 83 years before discounts), stability, and ideas. And at least some of the expansion would be pre-administrative ideas.
12 points/mo is pretty optimistic too, base with admin focus is 5/mo, so you'd need 7 from ruler skill + advisers + estate. Even with above average ruler luck you need to also average level 2 admin adviser while using the estate for monarch points.
The math is a lot less brutal if you have CCR NIs to stack with administrative, or razing. You can also get at least some work done by annexing subjects, though I get the impression that most players aren't getting 1k+ dev from that before imperialism too often...and unless you have a good CB a lot of DIP will go into peace deals.
What am I missing? Unless I'm running CCR tags it's constant monarch point strap other than MIL.
I would guess vassal core feeding. You know, nations like Syria, Bulgaria, etc etc. Reviving dead or dying nations and getting their cores back for free in peace deals.
Let's say we get imperialism in 1687. That's 242 years. If we average 10 DIP/month during that period (base 3 - 1 focus + 3 ruler +1 estate + 1 projection + 3 advisor). That's 29040 DIP. Let's say we take 2 DIP idea groups for 14*400=5600. 20 levels of tech with average of 10% discount (from ideas and being behind) would cost 10800. Thus 12640 DIP left. Any nation can get 45% discount, so 4.4 DIP per dev. That means enough to diplo-annex 2872 dev. I think my estimates are rather pessimistic here. Average tech discount is likely to be higher than 10% if playing efficiently. 10 DIP/month is probably also a bit lower than with optimal play. You would also likely to get some temporary diplo-annex cost discounts. So the key would be to avoid paying for unjustified demands as much as possible. Standard price of 3 DIP/dev would certainly be a bad deal. Fortunately, vassal play allows taking mostly justified demands for 0 DIP. Although it does make conquest a bit less straightforward.
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I guess I need to emphasize DIP more with non-RCC tags, but IMO estimating +3 adviser is definitely optimistic. For at least the early goings that isn't going to be feasible, how fast it becomes so will depend on the nation in question. But getting to 5k with combo of coring + annexing is more plausible this way, since you could diplo annex ~2k and that makes the coring math I put above comfortably in range.
The dissonance for me is that when I have observed players doing expansion pre-imperialism I don't see a lot of vassal feeding that would amount to ~2k of subject annexation in most cases.
The dissonance for me is that when I have observed players doing expansion pre-imperialism I don't see a lot of vassal feeding that would amount to ~2k of subject annexation in most cases.
With smallish start I would still expect to get to L3 advisor sometime around 1510-1530. And then 50 years or so later - L4 advisor, so it would average to around 3. Of course, there are terrible starts where thing may go slower, but then there are better starts (even with minors) where the growth will be quicker - typical for S/SE Asia (though you would need more points there for institutions)
Institutions are a big deal if you have to develop for them, it's comically less development to drop ~2k points on 3-4 institutions each than to use those to expand. If you can get them from alliance/conquest it's worth even if you take a tech or two with significant penalties.
In my 1580-ish Florence -> Rome run on a previous patch, I used Valencia, Catalonia, Milan, Venice, Burgundy, Gascony, Toulouse, Leon, Galicia, Byz, Karaman, Bulgaria, and Eretna vassals iirc. I assume that's way over 1k dev. (Though I was a republic so 6/6/6 all day)
Vassal play is pretty crucial in AE heavy areas, so I value influence early for such starts, especially since influence is good to have to save dip when separate peacing anyway.
Also don't forget that absolutism/adm efficiency from 1610 is a pretty big thing. I agree that imperialism is a major speedup, but getting absolutism is a more impactful speedup to conquest. You can do a lot with 60 years of 40% adm efficiency.
Vassal play is pretty crucial in AE heavy areas, so I value influence early for such starts, especially since influence is good to have to save dip when separate peacing anyway.
Also don't forget that absolutism/adm efficiency from 1610 is a pretty big thing. I agree that imperialism is a major speedup, but getting absolutism is a more impactful speedup to conquest. You can do a lot with 60 years of 40% adm efficiency.
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there is old patches that don't have absolutism effect cap, or the streamers can roll back to this patch. And there is an interesting paragraph from a WC guide:
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Nationalism everywhere. Siu-King** has demonstrated that once you have a sufficient economic engine, you can afford to unstate pretty much all your land. This can allow you to culture shift to your next target’s culture group, enabling nationalism CB instead of imperialism. The effect is huge. Stacked with enough CCR, you can core so fast overextension ceases to be relevant. This is a really, truly clever strategy, and perfectly legitimate. But it’s so powerful I don’t use it myself.
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Nationalism everywhere. Siu-King** has demonstrated that once you have a sufficient economic engine, you can afford to unstate pretty much all your land. This can allow you to culture shift to your next target’s culture group, enabling nationalism CB instead of imperialism. The effect is huge. Stacked with enough CCR, you can core so fast overextension ceases to be relevant. This is a really, truly clever strategy, and perfectly legitimate. But it’s so powerful I don’t use it myself.
If you have 80% CCR you can actually use a similar strategy even w/o using the stateless tactic to culture swap/core more quickly. Very powerful but only a few nations can set it up easily.