Is the "Go to India for money, then play the rest of the game" strategy still valid?

[danisv]

Before 1.30 the recommended strategy to make heaps of cash as a European was usually "Go to India before Age of Absolution, Conquer and TC it, and the conquer the rest of the world with the money" or whatever your end goal was for that campaign. Is this still the best strategy for making cash after 1.30 and changes to states, TCs etc for major nations or is there better ones?

 

[Vetgirig]

No, its still a very valid strategy. It reflect real life.

 

[Meglok]

It is not quite as necessary as before, now that Trade Companies can be formed anywhere outside your home region. But the Indies and subcontinent are still loaded with goodies ripe for the picking.

 

[Battlex]

Before 1.30 the recommended strategy to make heaps of cash as a European was usually "Go to India before Age of Absolution, Conquer and TC it, and the conquer the rest of the world with the money" or whatever your end goal was for that campaign. Is this still the best strategy for making cash after 1.30 and changes to states, TCs etc for major nations or is there better ones?

Only TC provinces with CoT and vassalise the rest until you have gov capacity to spare

 

[Cavalry]

Of course everything is valid if you can conquer it. But for my play in the South East Asia, the Kilwa gold or Aztec gold (or Peru Potasi gold) are much more valid! Once game I reach Kilwa early and they are much weaker than other games when I reach them late, like just 12 divisions.

To get the most of gold provinces, make them states and convert religious, then develop diplo development.

 

[love sweden]

Cash isnt as important anymore since you cant turn money into manpower due to mercs being basically useless and too tedious to bother using in the first place.

 

[EarlKonrad]

Cash isnt as important anymore since you cant turn money into manpower due to mercs being basically useless and too tedious to bother using in the first place.

Well now you need cash to spam courthouses so it is still very, very valuable. Arguably more so than before.

 

[Maxxie42]

One thing that's nice is that with the addition of the Valencia trade node, you don't need to conquer half of Italy and southern France anymore. As long as you have all of Iberia, you can make Sevilla a virtual end node, and the whole thing is a lot less expensive AE-wise.

 

[Reman]

Rushing to India is no longer the meta since TCs aren't hypercritical like they were back in the terrcorr days. India tends to be higher AE due to the tightly clustered Muslims, so it'd be better to go for places like East Africa, Indonesia, Japan, or even the Aztecs/Inca. Money is way, way more important in the early game due to courthouses.

 

[Travis_Bickle]

It depends on who you are, and what the situation in India is.

I find that very often, the Indian states are strong and tied into a huge alliance web. Once or twice, they've been broken up and it's a perfect opportunity to strike. On the other hand, if SE Asia hasn't been brought under Ming's sphere of influence, it's far easier to invade.

Regardless, I've found in my current Castile/Spain save, owning the Americas, integrating Portugal's colonies (My PU) and instantly declaring the second England had more than 5 provinces in the Americas was enough to make sure I was filthy rich. I have a huge army + mercs to forcelimit + level 3 advisors and courthoused all my stated land in 1600 and I'm making a little bit of money still. Eating West Africa + South Africa helped. Don't forget there are ivory rich provinces and gold provinces in SE Africa too. Whenever I need a sudden boost of cash I just invade England or France and the treasure fleets are coming quite often.

If it's not efficient to eat India first, and it's often not, then you have other options.

 

[Cavalry]

Trade Company provinces have min about 80% min autonomy, so they have only 20% tax and manpower compared to states. You need big money to build the TC buildings to get more. In early game I found that I don't have gold to build them. So TC is questionable big investment if you don't control the trade nodes.

 

[Meglok]

Gold mines, if available, seem far more important to rush toward in early games now. One good mine can cover a lot of expenses.

 

[lambda x.x]

To summarize 1.29 conquest meta, it was
1) Move capital to Europe
2) Rush India -- only conquer non TC states/territories up until terr corr kicks in
3) Once you have enough econ, conquer non TCs
As a consequence of 2, you were not able to nicely chain your indian trade to your home node in the stereotypical collect in one place style, so you'd instead collect in a bunch of places and merchant placement/trade setup was therefore fairly trivial

In 1.30, the "conquest meta" (hard to say, since GC needs some more time to sink in) is
1) Get core good religion/culture states
2) Conquer territories + build courthouses on each province while being mindful of good trade chains
Aside from merchant republics that get it cheaper, TCs play a role in two ways:
a) getting a merchant
b) increasing goods produced in non TC provinces

The purpose of a is fairly obvious, and you would often target a when you know you need a merchant. b is a fairly underrated thing and is actually a very strong modifier later on to your "core states." For example in my only major 1.30 run so far as Ryukyu, I mixed states + territories in Bengal, Malacca, and Moluccas -- the goods produced bonus from a couple TCs massively increased my income.

Btw, to achieve a and b, you need your TCs to have high provincial trade power share. To do that you should look to lower the trade power on non TCs (for example delete market places, lower CoT level, and so on for territories/states) while increasing the trade power on TCs (CoT, buildings, etc.). Of course, do this only once you have almost 100% trade power in a node. One trick that I learned from an mp player was to TC low dev 5 province states and buy the 400 ducat harbor upgrade, which provides a massive trade power (more gold efficient than level 2 -> level 3 CoT) at a fairly low GC cost since you can generally find 5 province states with mostly 1/1/1 barren land.

 

[Reman]

Btw, to achieve a and b, you need your TCs to have high provincial trade power share. To do that you should look to lower the trade power on non TCs (for example delete market places, lower CoT level, and so on for territories/states) while increasing the trade power on TCs (CoT, buildings, etc.). Of course, do this only once you have almost 100% trade power in a node. One trick that I learned from an mp player was to TC low dev 5 province states and buy the 400 ducat harbor upgrade, which provides a massive trade power (more gold efficient than level 2 -> level 3 CoT) at a fairly low GC cost since you can generally find 5 province states with mostly 1/1/1 barren land.

The Company Depot investment tip is a good one, as it's about twice as efficient for generating trade power per ducat as upgrading a CoT from 2 --> 3.

Note that I don't think going for low dev provinces is necessary here, since a courthouse + state house will push TCs down to 5% GC cost even wtih the wrong trade good.

 

[Reman]

while being mindful of good trade chains

Also, I'm not certain how important trade chains are due to a curious interaction I just found with the goods produced bonus from TCs. You get a lot more bonus goods by collecting from non-home nodes than you do from transferring.

When transferring, the goods bonus is 59.1%:

When collecting, the goods bonus doubles to 118.2%:

 

[Battlex]

Also, I'm not certain how important trade chains are due to a curious interaction I just found with the goods produced bonus from TCs. You get a lot more bonus goods by collecting from non-home nodes than you do from transferring.

When transferring, the goods bonus is 59.1%:
View attachment 663501


When collecting, the goods bonus doubles to 118.2%:
View attachment 663502

But how much is it worth by the time it gets to home node? As well as losing the merchant buff from collecting outside home node

 

[Meglok]

I notice that several people are mentioning putting courthouses on just about everywhere. I would disagree with that, based upon ROI. Saving 1 or 2 governing capacity isn't worth 100 gold. The absolute lowest province dev I will consider for a courthouse is a 12, and then only when I am desperate. Usually my minimum is 16 or greater.

Also, I will point out how important Admin ideas are now, with that juicy +25% bonus to governing capacity which just keeps getting better with every increase of GC in the game. I find admin almost required for any blobbing.

 

[Cavalry]

I guess court houses and states are useful if you need the manpower. Playing as an SE Asia minor I throw all available provinces to TC except gold provinces and have GC not a problem. My country was rich but didn't have the kind of manpower of Ming or the Russian.

 

[Battlex]

I notice that several people are mentioning putting courthouses on just about everywhere. I would disagree with that, based upon ROI. Saving 1 or 2 governing capacity isn't worth 100 gold. The absolute lowest province dev I will consider for a courthouse is a 12, and then only when I am desperate. Usually my minimum is 16 or greater.

Also, I will point out how important Admin ideas are now, with that juicy +25% bonus to governing capacity which just keeps getting better with every increase of GC in the game. I find admin almost required for any blobbing.

RoI is low, but if we have nothing else to spend money on, why not spend it, especially when you already have 4 privleiges in estates

 

[Reman]

I notice that several people are mentioning putting courthouses on just about everywhere. I would disagree with that, based upon ROI. Saving 1 or 2 governing capacity isn't worth 100 gold. The absolute lowest province dev I will consider for a courthouse is a 12, and then only when I am desperate. Usually my minimum is 16 or greater.

If you're absolutely strapped for cash (especially early game), then sure, build courthouses in the big provinces first. But the tiny provinces really start to add up when you have a lot of them. Heck, even saving 2 GC is enough to full-state a 20 dev province with correct trade goods when town halls roll around.

I guess court houses and states are useful if you need the manpower. Playing as an SE Asia minor I throw all available provinces to TC except gold provinces and have GC not a problem. My country was rich but didn't have the kind of manpower of Ming or the Russian.

Mass TC-ing provinces doesn't seem like a very good option these days, as TC provinces don't get the goods produced bonus from % of trade power controlled. You really want to mix and match full states, TCs, and territories now, with the following priorities:

1. Full-state areas with gems/paper/glass or gold. Reduce their trade power as much as possible (delete marketplaces, downgrade CoTs).
2. TC areas without the trade goods listed above, focusing on areas with trade power modifiers. Add company depots, and make sure you get to at least 50% trade control for the merchant, but exceeding this significantly is fine for a higher goods produced bonus.
3. If you have extra GC left over, full-state areas without the correct trade goods and without trade power modifiers, focusing on larger provinces with more dev for efficient state house/courthouse costs.
4. Leave everything else in territories.
5. Have a merchant collect from the node to maximize the goods produced bonus, which affects states and territories.

Good players should have at least 5000 dev in core provinces by the time Imperialism rolls around, and great players can probably push this to 8-9k.