Is the Division between the Free Patch and DLC Awkward?(Building changes)

[chrnno]

Not that it changes anything, but I have running 1.9.2 game right now and without AoW I can not humiliate (except for NA natives) nor request reparations.

I will check when I get to my computer but I don't have AoW and I am pretty sure I saw the option at some point, might have been changed through the patches.

 

[zdlugasz]

Building up development in one province to go from 1 building to 7 buildings is currently about 60 upgrades.. Which is rather insanely, and extremely costly.. That creates a province which is about Paris & Constaniople together in value.. At about 10.000 monarch power in total.

Actually, since a 1 building prov is bad terrain and climate, it would cost at least twice..

Thanks for explanation about development costs.
Still, reading DDs I except that Air/Oirat/insert some other rotw poor guy here can relatively cheaply improve tax one desert province to be able to build 2 buildings (maybe even 3).

Answering somebody else, currently some things work better when build in primary culture provinces. OK, Air led by player can conquer France, and even AI Oirat can conquer Ming, but wrong religion/wrong culture provinces have significant maluses for income, manpower, ... (and France is overseas for Air, so 75% LA will cut in). So it is preferable to build Armories, other stuff at home.

Even if development for only 2 buildings is "cheap", then Air/Oirat can alternate every second province Cash/Manpower building, with forts, marketplaces, unique buildings, or extra cash/manpower here or there. If Oirat can not develop land then they are stuck with one building per province. That is gamechanger for me.

 

[Amosblanco]

Building up development in one province to go from 1 building to 7 buildings is currently about 60 upgrades.. Which is rather insanely, and extremely costly.. That creates a province which is about Paris & Constaniople together in value.. At about 10.000 monarch power in total.

Actually, since a 1 building prov is bad terrain and climate, it would cost at least twice..

But, if it is true, will it gives too many advantages to those OPMs and small nations? They can concentrate their development in their only or small number of provinces, while big nations have to distribute their limited monarch points for development to a vast domain???

 

[Katsue]

Assuming that the formula = 5 + 5*(Development levels already purchased)*, then it would take 140 Monarch Points to take a province from Development 3 to Development 10. Getting to Development 20 in the same province would take another 625 Monarch Points.

* 60 Development levels using that formula would cost 9,150 Monarch Points. If the base cost was 6, then the cost would be 10,980 Monarch Points.

EDIT: It would clearly be significantly cheaper to develop lots of Provinces than to overdevelop one province, although if you can get any percentage bonuses through buildings, then the latter is more lucrative.

 

[blackchoas]

But, if it is true, will it gives too many advantages to those OPMs and small nations? They can concentrate their development in their only or small number of provinces, while big nations have to distribute their limited monarch points for development to a vast domain???

seeing how there is literally no in game advantage to being a smaller nation rather than a massive sprawling empire, I would say that this is reasonable

 

[Golladan]

Assuming that the formula = 5 + 5*(Development levels already purchased)*, then it would take 140 Monarch Points to take a province from Development 3 to Development 10. Getting to Development 20 in the same province would take another 625 Monarch Points.

* 60 Development levels using that formula would cost 9,150 Monarch Points. If the base cost was 6, then the cost would be 10,980 Monarch Points.

EDIT: It would clearly be significantly cheaper to develop lots of Provinces than to overdevelop one province, although if you can get any percentage bonuses through buildings, then the latter is more lucrative.

5 base seems too low. So does 6 base. I'm guessing the base is probably going to be closer to 30.

 

[LRDK]

Senseless fanboyism like this annoys me as much as senseless hatred and is unecessary.

The fact that it (province improvement) will be a core mechanic of the game, and that it can easily affect balance, is enough of a reason to include it in the free patch. I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that the DLC should be free, no, but rather that mechanics like this belong to the free patch. When 1.8 came around, Paradox did not force us to purchase DLCs to get the new provinces and this is a similar situation.

It is different to having the religion-specific mechanics be in the DLC, or even the parliament, free cities, subject interaction, etc. Base Tax, Manpower and now Production are all important values of how this game's core mechanics work, and leaving something like their improvement outside of the free patch is pretty likely to cause future problems for patching, since it will limit options unless Paradox completely ignores who for some reason did not purchase the DLC. Furthermore, it can limit modders, given that to make use of this mechanic in a mod, the DLC would be necessary, even if that is (IMO) a lesser problem which was far worse back then when we would get expansions.

Frankly, ideally most players will get the DLC, but such an important feature should be in the free patch, given the current DLC model. If you think that everything should be in the DLC like you have just stated, that's fine, but it'd require a radical shift from the current DLC model back to the old expansions one and likely would only be viable for EUV+. And it would, of course, kill MP.

My thoughts before AI kenw it was in the DLC "Wow... The new development system will be really cool, and I'll probably get the DLC as well, as It has cool features to add on to the game, what with the new religion and HRE mechanics to supplement the game". Now I feel that I am unnecessarily forced to buy the DLC. What used to be a willing decision to gladly buy the DLC is now much more grudging.

 

[Katsue]

5 base seems too low. So does 6 base. I'm guessing the base is probably going to be closer to 30.

You think it's going to cost more to add 1 tax to a province than to core a new province?

 

[Golladan]

You think it's going to cost more to add 1 tax to a province than to core a new province?

Definitely. Considering that conquering and coring a new province comes at a higher cost.

Do you think that you'll be able to add 20 base tax to your 20-province nation by spending a mere 100 points?

 

[Frederick_Will]

Not that it changes anything, but I have running 1.9.2 game right now and without AoW I can not humiliate (except for NA natives) nor request reparations.

Well I am on the current patch without AoW. I can humiliate a rival, but can not take reparations. Maybe it is a patch thing that fixed a bug?




As for the OP, I will post what i posted else where.

This is a concern as well. I am not a fan of them taking away options, just to give them back only by making you pay for them, again.

 

[Exasperation]

Definitely. Considering that conquering and coring a new province comes at a higher cost.

Do you think that you'll be able to add 20 base tax to your 20-province nation by spending a mere 100 points?

I don't think that it's likely that a 20-province nation would consist entirely of 1 base tax provinces in the first place; remember that development is not on top of base tax, it's instead of it. If we assume uniform 4 bt provinces (a la the flat base tax mode), then the "5 + 5 per" cost model works out to 400 points (assuming that the 5 per starts counting at 1, if it starts counting at 0 it's 500 points) . Also, because of how wide-reaching the effects of bt are, it seems to me that buying one bt is more like buying one of each type of development, so that's 400-500 points in each category* (or 100-200 of each category if we assume your country has cherry-picked the 20 worst provinces in the world).

So, coring 20 bt of provinces = 400 admin (300 with claims), while adding the same amount of effectiveness through development would be at least 100 from each mp category (and probably more like 250 or 300 from each category if you have a realistic range of bt for your provinces and prioritize the cheapest-to-develop provinces first).

I'm not saying that 5 + 5 is the correct cost model, but your "mere 100 points" seems like a bit of a straw-man to me.

* I'm assuming here that the costs for each category are independent to prevent min-maxing by building development with the most in demand points first and the least in demand points last, but if costs are not independent it increases the costs significantly, to an average of 200 from each category in the cheapest case and an average of 1100 from each category in the flat base tax case.

 

[Metz]

If those saying that paying $10-15 for a great expansion is a big concern then I have some bad news for you.

 

[Golladan]

I don't think that it's likely that a 20-province nation would consist entirely of 1 base tax provinces in the first place; remember that development is not on top of base tax, it's instead of it. If we assume uniform 4 bt provinces (a la the flat base tax mode), then the "5 + 5 per" cost model works out to 400 points (assuming that the 5 per starts counting at 1, if it starts counting at 0 it's 500 points) . Also, because of how wide-reaching the effects of bt are, it seems to me that buying one bt is more like buying one of each type of development, so that's 400-500 points in each category* (or 100-200 of each category if we assume your country has cherry-picked the 20 worst provinces in the world).

So, coring 20 bt of provinces = 400 admin (300 with claims), while adding the same amount of effectiveness through development would be at least 100 from each mp category (and probably more like 250 or 300 from each category if you have a realistic range of bt for your provinces and prioritize the cheapest-to-develop provinces first).

I'm not saying that 5 + 5 is the correct cost model, but your "mere 100 points" seems like a bit of a straw-man to me.

* I'm assuming here that the costs for each category are independent to prevent min-maxing by building development with the most in demand points first and the least in demand points last, but if costs are not independent it increases the costs significantly, to an average of 200 from each category in the cheapest case and an average of 1100 from each category in the flat base tax case.

The cost of increasing the base tax of a base tax 2 province and a base tax 10 province to 3 and 11 respectively is the same. Also the cost increase takes into account the total development done in the province. It's not per category.

Hutter Huttersson‏@huttersson May 6
@Martin_Anward do not westerns get some penalty to further development? Is it implicit due to them having to spend more mp on tech and such?

Martin Anward ‏@Martin_Anward May 6
@huttersson There's no 'western' penalty to developing, no. There's penalties for terrain, high development and # times developed

Markos Sigalas ‏@yf_23 May 6
@Martin_Anward @huttersson does # of times developed start counting from 0 development or from first manual development?

Martin Anward ‏@Martin_Anward May 6
@yf_23 @huttersson First manual, but there's a separate (smaller) penalty for total development in province

 

[Mauer]

I'll buy the DLC on the first fay like I always do so I really don't care either way, but I kinda expected them to make it a free feature. OTOH, maybe they just got fed up with all the threads saying DLC is overpriced because it adds little compared to the changes included for free in patches.

Anyway, remember you can always go back to a previous version of the game if a change in mechanics or rebalance is too unpalatable for you, or use a mod.

 

[Metz]

Id really like for Cuba and Hispaniola to be split off the Antilles cn. Cuba and Hispaniola were very valuable on their own rights to be their own cn.

 

[Castrolol]

Id really like for Cuba and Hispaniola to be split off the Antilles cn. Cuba and Hispaniola were very valuable on their own rights to be their own cn.

Personally I'd like the Caribbean to be a trade company instead of a colonial region, however that's completely off topic. I'm assuming you posted in the wrong thread.

 

[Targor]

The only feature that seems a little problematic to me is the retiring of advisors, it's a little feature that everyone would like to have similar to the power focus that also doesn't really corellate with the DLCs topic but is a good reason to buy it for all playthroughs.

 

[Katsue]

Definitely. Considering that conquering and coring a new province comes at a higher cost.

And comes with far more benefits. A 3 Development province currently costs 7-10 Admin points, and also gives you a boost to your Trade Power. The cost in time, money and effort is frequently trivial as well.

 

[Duke of Britain]

The only feature that seems a little problematic to me is the retiring of advisors, it's a little feature that everyone would like to have similar to the power focus that also doesn't really corellate with the DLCs topic but is a good reason to buy it for all playthroughs.

I had not even remembered about that one when I listed the DLC features in my last post.

Still, that's the kind of thing for this DLC that I don't really mind as much to be DLC-exclusive. It is very useful, but at most times fairly minor (Unless you want a specific advisor when you are starting the game) and you can get around it. In an ideal world it would be free, but I if I can live without transferring occupation, I can live without the advisors.

It's an entirely new feature, after all.

 

[moyang]

It should be a free feature, it's a common sense