Is the AI worse now?

[parkerg12]

What a Bummer, I am a day one player of stellaris and put the pause button on after megacorp since games always end in AIs have collapsed economies or harsh late game lag. I totally would get back into stellaris if I knew the game would not break post 2350.

 

[pmchem]

So obviously you put in a lot of effort into these reports and I wanted to respect that by investigating, We're taking a look today. However it seems like this particular issue might be something related to the fast forward command causing wonky behavior rather than the live AI itself.

ok, following up on this now...

as a control test, I now have a default settings game running in observer mode. just normally going on "fastest" speed with "observe" being the only console command used. the game is minimized on my PC and I'm just going to wait and see what happens.

the initial results of the "observe"-only test are in. no fast_forward used. I still see complete economic failure in multiple empires. new game, new bug reports. they are filed here, with screenshots, brief descriptions, and save game:

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many) Game Version 3.0.2. What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Andakingu]

ok, following up on this now...



the initial results of the "observe"-only test are in. no fast_forward used. I still see complete economic failure in multiple empires. new game, new bug reports. they are filed here, with screenshots, brief descriptions, and save game:

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many) Game Version 3.0.2. What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Hats off to you here.

 

[pmchem]

Hats off to you here.

thanks. I may be the guy that's reporting all this, but really anyone can do it. since it's running via observe, no human interaction is needed to advance game time. it's simply a matter of people being willing to use console commands and submit bug reports. I hope other people start doing this too, because while I can create games and file reports, I don't have time to investigate WHY the AI is failing so bad. others may be able to figure that out. hopefully the PDX QA team beats us to it.

 

[Andakingu]

thanks. I may be the guy that's reporting all this, but really anyone can do it. since it's running via observe, no human interaction is needed to advance game time. it's simply a matter of people being willing to use console commands and submit bug reports. I hope other people start doing this too, because while I can create games and file reports, I don't have time to investigate WHY the AI is failing so bad. others may be able to figure that out. hopefully the PDX QA team beats us to it.

Out of curiousity, how long does each playtest take? You running all the DLC?

 

[pmchem]

Out of curiousity, how long does each playtest take? You running all the DLC?

no nemesis, no necroids, no humanoids, no plantoids. all other DLC/expansions though.

honestly it goes fairly fast, I think the 60-year non-fast_forward run I just posted for the last 3 bug reports took under 3 hours. i7-6700 CPU, windows 10. you have to remember that it's all default settings so the # of empires and galaxy size is not excessive. and it's observe mode so no human inputs needed and no pausing of time.

I have to imagine PDX is capable and doing similar human-free observation of galaxy evolution so honestly I have no idea how these problems aren't already known internally and prioritized for fixes. heck I thought that's why the fast_forward command existed, as a QA aid.

 

[Verx90]

Out of curiousity, how long does each playtest take? You running all the DLC?

I usualy make runs with all DLC , a night run 8-10 hours at 3 speed is the time required to get a lategame run , 2330-2370 ... but I did only GA scaling/nonscaling difficulty , so I ended up reporting only non-economy related bugs .

 

[Gobla]

ok, following up on this now...



the initial results of the "observe"-only test are in. no fast_forward used. I still see complete economic failure in multiple empires. new game, new bug reports. they are filed here, with screenshots, brief descriptions, and save game:

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many) Game Version 3.0.2. What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Having looked at the majority of your reports the one constant I see, which I also see in my own games, is a huge focus on industrial districts.

Now looking at the economic plans they have a "focus" part, namely if the AI doesn't have the resource surplus listed in the focus part it will prioritize that.

These focuses are
energy = 10
minerals = 30
alloys = 50

and later added via a subplan:
food = 50
consumer_goods = 50

I think one of two things is happening:

1. The AI deals with it's focus resources one at a time in alphabetical order. So if it's below 50 alloy production it will focus on getting to 50 alloy production at the exclusion of all else.
2. The AI is more intelligent about picking a focus but once it has picked a focus it doesn't pick a new one until it's been achieved. So it may first focus on getting 10 energy surplus, but once it's achieved that it will, at some point, focus on 50 alloy production ( or consumer goods ).

Given that in order to reach 50 alloy production you need around 20 industrial districts and with the number of metallurgists no longer being limited by building slots the AI will focus all it's resources on building industrial districts, which it can now do without limitation, to reach that target 50 alloy surplus. In the process of doing that it will completely crash it's economy, food shortage reducing growth and mineral shortage reducing the exact alloy surplus it's trying to achieve thus ensuring it will never reach that 50 alloy surplus and thus get stuck in a loop where it will try to build more industrial districts to reach it and by doing so ensuring it's economy remains as bad as it is.

 

[Andakingu]

no nemesis, no necroids, no humanoids, no plantoids. all other DLC/expansions though.

honestly it goes fairly fast, I think the 60-year non-fast_forward run I just posted for the last 3 bug reports took under 3 hours. i7-6700 CPU, windows 10. you have to remember that it's all default settings so the # of empires and galaxy size is not excessive. and it's observe mode so no human inputs needed and no pausing of time.

I have to imagine PDX is capable and doing similar human-free observation of galaxy evolution so honestly I have no idea how these problems aren't already known internally and prioritized for fixes. heck I thought that's why the fast_forward command existed, as a QA aid.

I may give a couple of runs myself. Gonna have to uninstall my mods, not that it matters as I haven't played much since the new patch killed the game for me.

Thanks for the initiative and the info pmchem.

 

[Cymsdale]

Having looked at the majority of your reports the one constant I see, which I also see in my own games, is a huge focus on industrial districts.

Now looking at the economic plans they have a "focus" part, namely if the AI doesn't have the resource surplus listed in the focus part it will prioritize that.

These focuses are
energy = 10
minerals = 30
alloys = 50

and later added via a subplan:
food = 50
consumer_goods = 50

I think one of two things is happening:

1. The AI deals with it's focus resources one at a time in alphabetical order. So if it's below 50 alloy production it will focus on getting to 50 alloy production at the exclusion of all else.
2. The AI is more intelligent about picking a focus but once it has picked a focus it doesn't pick a new one until it's been achieved. So it may first focus on getting 10 energy surplus, but once it's achieved that it will, at some point, focus on 50 alloy production ( or consumer goods ).

Given that in order to reach 50 alloy production you need around 20 industrial districts and with the number of metallurgists no longer being limited by building slots the AI will focus all it's resources on building industrial districts, which it can now do without limitation, to reach that target 50 alloy surplus. In the process of doing that it will completely crash it's economy, food shortage reducing growth and mineral shortage reducing the exact alloy surplus it's trying to achieve thus ensuring it will never reach that 50 alloy surplus and thus get stuck in a loop where it will try to build more industrial districts to reach it and by doing so ensuring it's economy remains as bad as it is.

It makes favorable trade deals one of the most potent weapons against the AI. Offer them a large monthly surplus of food and/or minerals long enough for them to align their economy around it, and watch the crash and burn once you take it away.

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

ok, following up on this now...



the initial results of the "observe"-only test are in. no fast_forward used. I still see complete economic failure in multiple empires. new game, new bug reports. they are filed here, with screenshots, brief descriptions, and save game:

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many) Game Version 3.0.2. What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris Aiis literally a brainlet now

 

[El Greco]

So I returned back to play Stellaris after a year or so. After 70 years in-game, it's the end, there's no more challenge, AI empires suddenly stopped being competitive.

I haven't managed to experience a crisis in the game yet. It gets so demotivating after a while.

See you in a year I guess.

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

I'm not going to get into a point by point breakdown, but the number of points does not necessarily how much effort was expended on it.


I've read a number of them but I think it bears mentioning. If you encounter AI issues, discussing them in a general manner here is fine but if you want to ensure that we see and investigate issues you've encountered. Log them on the bug forums, especially if you have saves.

We have a process for getting issues from the bug forum into the bug database. Not for combing the general forum, we need to be efficient with our time.



Lol I wish. Trying to arrange the time of a studio full of people for one MP is difficult enough. We have weekly MP's, but we do most of our testing in single player, both short and long games. Directed and Exploratory.

Not enough:

 

[Sayakus]

In all my vanilla games, AI commits suicide around midgame. Lord @Glavius save us

 

[Mortmal]

After trying several hours , several builds, its worse than i thought. The Ai economy completely collapse in every cases, unable to build up any military. If i was working at paradox i would be ashamed to release the game in that state , really.
Now i downloaded the mod many people advise Starnet AI , and all the problems dissapears, the AI start being decent. I dont know what this guy did, but it works.

 

[Enfield_PDX]

Not enough:

What exactly are you aiming to accomplish by posting that at me?

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

@Enfield_PDX

In contrast to them, trying to be constructive, have you seen the post earlier in this thread by @Gobla? It has a well-reasoned hypothesis of what is currently making the AI perform worse than expected - perhaps it might be something to look into to see if he/she is onto something. If so, perhaps that could lead to a strengthened AI.

Having looked at the majority of your reports the one constant I see, which I also see in my own games, is a huge focus on industrial districts.

Now looking at the economic plans they have a "focus" part, namely if the AI doesn't have the resource surplus listed in the focus part it will prioritize that.

These focuses are
energy = 10
minerals = 30
alloys = 50

and later added via a subplan:
food = 50
consumer_goods = 50

I think one of two things is happening:

1. The AI deals with it's focus resources one at a time in alphabetical order. So if it's below 50 alloy production it will focus on getting to 50 alloy production at the exclusion of all else.
2. The AI is more intelligent about picking a focus but once it has picked a focus it doesn't pick a new one until it's been achieved. So it may first focus on getting 10 energy surplus, but once it's achieved that it will, at some point, focus on 50 alloy production ( or consumer goods ).

Given that in order to reach 50 alloy production you need around 20 industrial districts and with the number of metallurgists no longer being limited by building slots the AI will focus all it's resources on building industrial districts, which it can now do without limitation, to reach that target 50 alloy surplus. In the process of doing that it will completely crash it's economy, food shortage reducing growth and mineral shortage reducing the exact alloy surplus it's trying to achieve thus ensuring it will never reach that 50 alloy surplus and thus get stuck in a loop where it will try to build more industrial districts to reach it and by doing so ensuring it's economy remains as bad as it is.

 

[Enfield_PDX]

ok, following up on this now...



the initial results of the "observe"-only test are in. no fast_forward used. I still see complete economic failure in multiple empires. new game, new bug reports. they are filed here, with screenshots, brief descriptions, and save game:

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (13/many) Game Version 3.0.2. What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (14/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much detail as...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Stellaris - [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many)

Description [3.0.2] [91c1] AI doing bad economic things (15/many) Game Version 3.0.2 What version do you use? Steam What expansions do you have installed? Do you have mods enabled? No Please explain your issue is in as much...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Thanks for the reports, we'll look into it.

I did see Gobla post. Going to give it a poke in the morning.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

Thanks for the reports, we'll look into it.

I did see Gobla post. Going to give it a poke in the morning.

That's great! Good luck in your investigations!

 

[pmchem]

Thanks for the reports, we'll look into it.

I did see Gobla post. Going to give it a poke in the morning.

ok, thank you again. good luck on the analysis.

I might let a game run while I sleep and see how far it gets. I will not be making any more "early" game tests of 3.0.2 unless for some reason PDX asks for one, but I think there are plenty of examples in existing reports.

and yeah I liked Gobla's post too