Is Swedens big industry historical?

[billcorr]

it is confusing for some players, though, as it seems weird.

Right you are.

Weird it is.

 

[Fulmen]

Also don't forget the enormous Swedish contribution to Finland (which had been part of Sweden proper for all of modern history up to 1809) with weapons (including fighters) and volunteers during the Winter War.

It's a shame that because of the actions of the Swedish government very little of that materiel, much of it antiquated, and very few of those volunteers, ever got deployed before the war was over.

For example, about a reinforced battalion's worth of Swedes got deployed to a quiet sector of the front in Northern Finland, starting 22. or 27.2.1940. They and a handful of individuals in other units, such as Flying Regiment 19 that flew bi-planes from the late 1920s and early 1930s, comprised the entirety of Swedes who saw action in the war.

Also to my understanding most of the materiel was purchased, not received for free, and at least in part due to Germany threatening to cut off arms exports to Sweden, lest the reluctant Swedes send arms to the Finns.

 

[Sunforged General]

Uh, no. Sweden also supplied the Britain and the allies with several thousand tonnes of much needed ball- and roller bearings (which were transported both on ships and on unarmed Mosquito's and without which Britain wouldn't have been able to manufacture warplanes as the American ball bearings were incompatible. In fact, more than 30% of the ball bearings came from Sweden.) and steel. In fact, the sale of ball bearings to Britain started as the same time Sweden started selling iron ore (though the sale of timber was larger) to Germany (in December 1939). The export to the warring parties was a quid pro quo. By selling to both parties, Sweden ensured that it still could import some vital goods and was in line with Swedish neutrality.

If Sweden had refused, it would probably had been occupied by Germany which would have led to more human tragedy. The allies were also intent on occupying the north of Sweden and devised a plan to do so during the Winter War in 1940 when, as a ruse, they asked Sweden to allow the transfer of 50 000 troops to Finland to fight the Soviet Union. Sweden refused.

Also, almost all of Denmark's Jews managed to escape to Sweden in 1943 after a German diplomat, Duckwitz (who had also informed the Swedish government), leaked to the Danish resistance that the Germans were about to round up the Jewish population for deportation (out of 7,800 Jews in Denmark, 7,220 managed to escape to Sweden transported on fishing and rowboats across Öresund).

Also don't forget the enormous Swedish contribution to Finland (which had been part of Sweden proper for all of modern history up to 1809) with weapons (including fighters) and volunteers during the Winter War.

The latter can't of course be modeled in the game, but Sweden's role in WWII is a bit more complicated that one might think.

I'm pretty sure the allied attempt to send soldiers to finland to help them vs the USSR, was not a allied conspiracy to take over Sweden.

 

[Fulmen]

I'm pretty sure the allied attempt to send soldiers to finland to help them vs the USSR, was not a allied conspiracy to take over Sweden.

It was an Allied "conspiracy" to take over Northern Sweden & Norway, in order to deny Hitler iron and other important metals from Scandinavia, and to create a Northern Front against Germany at the expense of Finland. The English units even had permission to not commit a single man to the aid of Finland. This is all well-documented and unclassified in 2020, though it was already quite obvious and suspected by the Finns at the time, and probably by the Swedes and Norwegians as well.

This plan was later recycled and used as the basis for a pre-emptive invasion of Norway called Plan R 4 which the Allies were going to carry out in the spring of 1940. The Germans struck first

EDIT: Actually "pre-emptive" is the wrong word to use here, since it was to be a straight up invasion to deny Germany imports from and through Norway, such as Swedish iron coming through the ice-free port of Narvik, and, as mentioned before, to open up another front against Germany.

 

[Rashie]

I'm pretty sure the allied attempt to send soldiers to finland to help them vs the USSR, was not a allied conspiracy to take over Sweden.

Allied intentions at that point in time towards the nordic region weren't particularily sincere, the war in Finland just happened to end before they got around to acting on it, with the germans then beating them to the punch about a month later.

 

[blahmaster6k]

It is not a problem with Sweden per-se, every major in the game experiences a completely absurd increase in CIC/MIL count. Furthermore Sweden has many resources to export which lets it gain CIC to expand its industry.

I think at the very least everyone should start with more CIC/MIL (maybe with a lower starting efficiency to keep the equipment production count right) but construction of new ones should take a lot longer, and CIC construction should go faster in a peaceful economic law, not the opposite as now happens.

Also construction of non-cic/mil items should be separated so that they don't slow industrial expansion like it does now. It's not like not building a Fort or Road gives you resources to build more factories. They are completely unrelated, one is using cement and bricks, the other requires creating complex machine tools.

try the ULTRA mod, it's a historical industry mod, it does exactly this and more.

 

[Znail]

It's a shame that because of the actions of the Swedish government very little of that materiel, much of it antiquated, and very few of those volunteers, ever got deployed before the war was over.

For example, about a reinforced battalion's worth of Swedes got deployed to a quiet sector of the front in Northern Finland, starting 22. or 27.2.1940. They and a handful of individuals in other units, such as Flying Regiment 19 that flew bi-planes from the late 1920s and early 1930s, comprised the entirety of Swedes who saw action in the war.

Also to my understanding most of the materiel was purchased, not received for free, and at least in part due to Germany threatening to cut off arms exports to Sweden, lest the reluctant Swedes send arms to the Finns.

Any support for that last statement? At least the German part seems really odd concidering how Important Swedish resources were to Germany, so "threatening" to give those up seems so odd that even if they made such a statement so does it seem like an empty threat.

Even if the material were late so should they have impacted Russia's motivation to sign the peace.

But the most important aspect of that aid is that Sweden in HoI4 can't really produce that much extra war material, have it from the start nor can they give it to Finland.
It's actually a major struggle in the game to match the historical production and impossible to match the number of soldiers historically recruited as Sweden, unless you go down the ahistorical route of switching idealogy. It should really be possible for countries, or at least Sweden, to go beyond the current peace time limits when the war is in full swing around your country.

 

[Fulmen]

Any support for that last statement? At least the German part seems really odd concidering how Important Swedish resources were to Germany, so "threatening" to give those up seems so odd that even if they made such a statement so does it seem like an empty threat.

It's from Kolmannen valtakunnan vieraat: Suomi Hitlerin Saksan vaikutuspiirissä 1933-1944. Apparently Göring told the Swedes Germany would only sell arms to Sweden, if the Swedes gave the Finns the equivalent amount of weapons.

Even if the material were late so should they have impacted Russia's motivation to sign the peace.

The amount of materiel that arrived and impacted the war was so small that I doubt this was the case. The Red Army's inability to defeat the Finnish army and the perceived threat of Western intervention is what motivated Stalin to sign a peace that he didn't intend to last for long anyway.

But the most important aspect of that aid is that Sweden in HoI4 can't really produce that much extra war material, have it from the start nor can they give it to Finland.

This is a problem with the game not having the amounts of materiel that nations had 1.1.1936. Sweden's stockpile at the start of the game should be much larger, as should everyone else's.

 

[Znail]

It's from Kolmannen valtakunnan vieraat: Suomi Hitlerin Saksan vaikutuspiirissä 1933-1944. Apparently Göring told the Swedes Germany would only sell arms to Sweden, if the Swedes gave the Finns the equivalent amount of weapons.



The amount of materiel that arrived and impacted the war was so small that I doubt this was the case. The Red Army's inability to defeat the Finnish army and the perceived threat of Western intervention is what motivated Stalin to sign a peace that he didn't intend to last for long anyway.



This is a problem with the game not having the amounts of materiel that nations had 1.1.1936. Sweden's stockpile at the start of the game should be much larger, as should everyone else's.

That brings the next question, what weapons were he talking about? The only one I could find that seems to fit is 1800 submachineguns but that doesn't match the numbers sent to Finland, so what were the rest?

Countries having their actual stores of equipment would be nice and could even come with a reduction of factories for some countries. But I guess the problem is that it doesn't cost anything to have a standing army and if nations have the guns so will they have larger armies then historical. There should be some incentive to not use up all manpower, even if it's there.

 

[Fulmen]

That brings the next question, what weapons were he talking about? The only one I could find that seems to fit is 1800 submachineguns but that doesn't match the numbers sent to Finland, so what were the rest?

Rifles, SMGs, aircraft, ammunition, etc. This page displays some of the materiel Sweden purchased from Germany in the late 1930s and early '40s.

I think you misunderstood something. The point was that the Swedes had to send at least the equivalent amount of what Germany was selling them. Sweden did eventually end up sending much more than that, but much of this arrived too late to make any impact in the war, some of it likely by intent to avoid appearing too "unneutral".

Sweden was overly cautious during the war and there's a lot to be said about the Swedish government and media causing perhaps even more harm to Finland during the war than good, unnecessarily so. E.g. was it really necessary to crack down on volunteer recruitment in December 1939, only to later encourage it, with the damage already done? Or to publish news stories on how Germany is letting Finnish weapons purchases go through her territory, prompting the Germans to block such transits, delaying them by months? Or delay the shipment (shipments of purchases and aid to Finland had to go through Sweden during the war) of 157,000 artillery or mortar shell fuzes (the source doesn't specify which, but likely mortar) to Finland until the 12th of March, rendering their host shells that had arrived earlier at the beginning of March unusable, when it was known that peace was imminent? The answer is no, it was not necessary. Anyway, I've written about those in more detail in other threads, such as this one, so I don't want to repeat myself too much here.

Also see here. The guy who wrote this isn't exactly the most academically objective fellow, but he's gathered several snippets of such harmful acts by the Swedish government and press. Finnish-only, so you're going to have to use your browser's translator.

 

[Znail]

But if Sweden sent much more then Göring demanded so do I have to question how much impact that demand had if any. Sweden wasn't actually neutral in the war between Finland and Russia as it had declared itself non-belligerent, wich is essentially between neutral and being actively at war. So sending aid to Finland would be expected. Germany was declared neutral, that is why they those news storys caused trouble.

 

[Fulmen]

But if Sweden sent much more then Göring demanded so do I have to question how much impact that demand had if any.

Without having access to dated logs of shipments sent as purchases or aid to Finland, my understanding is that initially Sweden was reluctant to send anything, to which Göring put his foot down and pressured Sweden to at least send something, and later, due to both domestic and international pressure, Sweden sent a lot more.

Sweden wasn't actually neutral in the war between Finland and Russia as it had declared itself non-belligerent, wich is essentially between neutral and being actively at war. So sending aid to Finland would be expected. Germany was declared neutral, that is why they those news storys caused trouble.

I suggest you check the links I posted.

Some excerpts:

"Sweden declared it will not help

Sweden's government made a declaration 16.2.1940, that Sweden will not aid Finland with regular troops.[xix] Sweden's King released a statement backing the declaration 19.2.1940.[xx]

This was of course a great relief for Russia and a stab in the back for Finland. If Sweden had at least kept quiet, it would have been helpful to Finland.

Finland's Foreign Minister Väinö Tanner straight out told Sweden's Prime Minister Hansson, that the Swedish King's and government's declarations cost Finland Viipuri and Sortavala, and that Sweden should have kept quiet.[xxi]"

"It is difficult to understand, why Sweden felt it necessary to make these declarations, which both by their contents and their form weakened our chances to achieve tolerable terms of peace - in Moscow on the other hand the declarations were met with satisfaction."[xxii] -Marshal C.G. Mannerheim"

"Sweden as a mediator for peace

Unfortunately as a mediator for the achieving of peace between Finland and Russia, Sweden only pursued her own interest, attempting to secure peace by whatever the cost - after all it was Finland that would pay the price, not Sweden.

"I have spoken with the Marshal, who has some ideas, not suggestions. Firstly, Sweden under the current circumstances is unqualified as mediator, because her main interest is to save her own hide. Therefore we must attempt to get another country as mediator. The Marshal on his behalf had thought of the United States of America."[xxvi] -Prime Minister Risto Ryti in a government session 3.3.1940"