Is support rebels ever worth it?

[CaptainChiatrol]

I finished the espionage idea group because I want to see if I could get a lot of use from it. I actually liked a lot of what it offered even though it felt like I got caught every other month but I never really saw a use for support rebels when I tried it a few times.

Supporting a reasonable sized rebel faction that isn't going to instantly die is INSANELY expensive. Stable empires aren't even effected by it. Unstable empires are generally not a threat that I need an extra faction of troops do deal with. Since the large stable empires are the threat what is the point?

I was doing it with the +50% espionage finisher and the +50% espionage policy and even when combined with sow discontent and many years (once 15 years) I could not crack a large rebellion on a large kingdom so help my invasions. This is with the cost slider at the max. The only way my supporting rebels could of been more powerful would be if I was irish for the extra +25%.

It costs a lot to do it though. A large rebellion with lots of counties can be over 70 gold a month and if the empire has lots of power to remain stable it may never see any fruit. It may have a few very limited situations it can help like if the AI JUST takes a whole bunch of land in one swoop from someone causing over extension cultures and regions that make large rebellions extremely easy, which I haven't seen it to that often. Instead the easy rebelions to create tend to be the small one county easily destroyed things from new conquests and that isn't helpful.

Is it just me? So right now it seems like a low benefit high cost interaction. Does anyone like support rebels?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's pretty weak unfortunately, mostly useful to avoid having to fight enemy rebels by making them friendly.

 

[lordelenath]

I like to use it on nations I just spanked silly if they have the potential to release new nations. Potentially avoids the long truces. But in general it's more effective to declare war and drive them bankrupt if you are able to do that.

 

[vranasm]

It's pretty weak unfortunately, mostly useful to avoid having to fight enemy rebels by making them friendly.

yeah I expected more interaction from the support rebels mechanics then it seems... exactly as OP said, if you face stable empire no chance to stir anything.

and still don't know if the mentioned "declare war based on rebels" mechanics even functions (they have probably to rebel first or what?)

 

[Beagá]

Supporting rebels gives a ton of power projection. It´s one of the best ways of gaining it.

It also has to be timed well. The best time to do it is just after the enemy fought a tough war. Suppose you are Ottomans, and you want to attack CW or Lithuania who just got some provinces. Then you support rebels. Having a rebellion appear when the AI has full manpower and not fighting a war is pointless except for PP gain.

 

[IIWW]

yeah I expected more interaction from the support rebels mechanics then it seems... exactly as OP said, if you face stable empire no chance to stir anything.

and still don't know if the mentioned "declare war based on rebels" mechanics even functions (they have probably to rebel first or what?)

Yes. You can only DoW in supported of rebeled faction, it would be just "free CB button" otherwise

Well, rarely, but I do it. My countries patriots, against an enemy that is going through some difficult times, or rebels in provinces that are hard to defend.

 

[CaptainChiatrol]

Supporting rebels gives a ton of power projection. It´s one of the best ways of gaining it.
Having a rebellion appear when the AI has full manpower and not fighting a war is pointless except for PP gain.

But it feels weird as a mechanic that only works when you don't need it but costs a lot of money.

 

[987655mm]

I would love some more interaction with the "support rebel" option other than just funding them or declaring war for them. How about recognizing their independence? I also agree that if you invest into the espionage group and go for max funding you should be able to punch bigger holes in the enemy though I would rather have a too weak "support rebels" option than a too strong one lol.

 

[Beagá]

But it feels weird as a mechanic that only works when you don't need it but costs a lot of money.

Revolts done versus powers who weren´t crippled seldom succeeded. The revolts themselves can make the AI bleed lots of manpower, and nothing else, which is the expected outcome of any rebellion that is, well, timed poorly

My major issue with support rebels is lack of better Pretender mechanics, but those also require more stuff into the game, like dinasties with more detail.

 

[987655mm]

Revolts done versus powers who weren´t crippled seldom succeeded. The revolts themselves can make the AI bleed lots of manpower, and nothing else, which is the expected outcome of any rebellion that is, well, timed poorly

My major issue with support rebels is lack of better Pretender mechanics, but those also require more stuff into the game, like dinasties with more detail.

Maybe an option would be to *steal* some aspects of the HOI3 Espionage system and you should be able to also trigger pretender wars etc. after accumulating a certain amount of power and funding of the rebels has been done.

 

[Thrake]

Perhaps it's just me but since AoW I just have no idea how supporting rebels will affect target country. Earlier, revolt risk was quite self explanatory; here, it seems to display things like 0.4. What is it? 0.4% monthly chance to increase the "rebelion meter" by 5%? Why can't I know wether the actual progress towards rebelion is 5% or 75%? I just don't feel like throwing some 10ish ducats a month for a rebelion that perhaps still has 95% progress before to rebel, and often times can just get bypassed by AI bonuses, legitimacy or the advisor. With RR, I wasn't supporting much but still trying sometimes, it was random, so either you support and rebels pop up (or don't), but it wasn't "throw money for years knowing nothing will happen up to perhaps the 10th year".

Then, the fact that unrest isn't linked to income doesn't help, because with RR, supporting meant that even if nothing happened, I was still hurting badly the economy in some key provinces.

 

[babylon218]

Speaking as someone who managed to release Finland from Sweden and is sitting with a mighty fine vassal giving me essential dominance over the east Baltic as Russia...

Yeah, I'd say it's worth it, if you can afford it.

 

[CaptainChiatrol]

Speaking as someone who managed to release Finland from Sweden and is sitting with a mighty fine vassal giving me essential dominance over the east Baltic as Russia...

Yeah, I'd say it's worth it, if you can afford it.

Well at the very least I'd like some ability to get a percentage status update from the rebels. it would be like asking your spy network "how are efforts with the rebels going" and getting a status report since right now you get 0 intel about the rebellion.

 

[Alsark]

Funny you mention this question because I had the same question earlier today and decided to do a test run... I made a non-Ironman game and console-commanded the heck out of it. Playing as Ireland (+25% rebel support efficiency for their 7th national idea), I took full Espionage (+50%), and also adopted the Humanist-Espionage (+25%) and Espionage-Economic (+50%) policies. With all of this, supporting rebels was +10 revolt risk for a particular rebel group, and then a universal +1 revolt risk for sow discontent.

It didn't really seem like a viable option. I couldn't even get Meath to rebel - and that was with England sitting at an additional +9 for war exhaustion. I played around 40 years of just supporting rebels in various countries. Never once did I successfully manage to make a nation break off. At one point the Lollards had like half of England, Epirus nationalists held a lot of the western half of the Ottoman Empire, and some Lithuanian nationalists did a decent job... but everything was always quelled. All in all it really didn't feel very worthwhile, especially considering how much you'd have to go out of your way to set up that +250% rebel support efficiency bonus.

 

[CaptainChiatrol]

Funny you mention this question because I had the same question earlier today and decided to do a test run... I made a non-Ironman game and console-commanded the heck out of it. Playing as Ireland (+25% rebel support efficiency for their 7th national idea), I took full Espionage (+50%), and also adopted the Humanist-Espionage (+25%) and Espionage-Economic (+50%) policies. With all of this, supporting rebels was +10 revolt risk for a particular rebel group, and then a universal +1 revolt risk for sow discontent.

It didn't really seem like a viable option. I couldn't even get Meath to rebel - and that was with England sitting at an additional +9 for war exhaustion. I played around 40 years of just supporting rebels in various countries. Never once did I successfully manage to make a nation break off. At one point the Lollards had like half of England, Epirus nationalists held a lot of the western half of the Ottoman Empire, and some Lithuanian nationalists did a decent job... but everything was always quelled. All in all it really didn't feel very worthwhile, especially considering how much you'd have to go out of your way to set up that +250% rebel support efficiency bonus.

That was some nice crunching for the test. So +11 revolt risk should crush any nation esp with exhaustion and increased cost to raise stability making it harder to reduce, but it doesn't effect them at all when stable. I was only at 200% myself because I wasn't ireland and I didn't have humanist.

This can be with around 70 gold a month going into it if it's a reasonable sized rebellion that will have ANY meaningful addition to the war.

And you get NO update for the percentage status of the rebellion from your spies. it's like they can't even tell you if the mission is going ok.

 

[Snake_Squeezins]

I would love to see a better variety of espionage options and expanded 'support rebels' mechanics, but I have found it useful in 2 instances:

1) Power Projection - one of the easiest ways to get some. You get PP even if you're supporting some fringe group that only costs you 0.20 gold per month.

2) Island and isolated areas - if the home state cannot easily reach and reconquer the area, there is a good chance of the rebels taking over. One example from my current game is that I devastated England during a war while supporting rebels in Ireland. Right after the war ended, 2 stacks of Leinster rebels accounting for about 36 units rose up as my allies and quickly occupied Ireland. The timer eventually ran out and the rebels formed Leinster, which promptly allied with me since I supported their uprising. I assume you could do the same with other islands and edges of larger empires, especially if you simultaneously battered the armies of the home empire so they couldn't easily retake the rebel-occupied areas.

But yes, overall I find the espionage options in EU4 pretty underwhelming, especially when compared to the stabfest of CK2. In that game you can engage in meaningful espionage from your first day, and options progress a bit as you get more power. This is something I do miss in EU4, and perhaps one day there can be an Espionage Expansion to flesh this out.

 

[CaptainChiatrol]

I would love to see a better variety of espionage options and expanded 'support rebels' mechanics, but I have found it useful in 2 instances:

1) Power Projection - one of the easiest ways to get some. You get PP even if you're supporting some fringe group that only costs you 0.20 gold per month.

This has come up a few times.

If an espionage action about supporting rebels is better for power projection then rebellions or conquests or anything related to actual rebels then why isn't that also a problem?

 

[Snake_Squeezins]

This has come up a few times.

If an espionage action about supporting rebels is better for power projection then rebellions or conquests or anything related to actual rebels then why isn't that also a problem?

I think the current system should be a lot better than it is. But you originally asked whether supporting rebels was 'worth it', and the answer is 'yes' if you want to increase PP.

 

[CaptainChiatrol]

I think the current system should be a lot better than it is. But you originally asked whether supporting rebels was 'worth it', and the answer is 'yes' if you want to increase PP.

I guess that's true and I doublechecked the mechanics of PP so I may start using it on cheaper rebel stacks more often just for the PP not not the high money items.

 

[babylon218]

Well at the very least I'd like some ability to get a percentage status update from the rebels. it would be like asking your spy network "how are efforts with the rebels going" and getting a status report since right now you get 0 intel about the rebellion.

I should make clear that I only supported the rebels after they revolted so I could tell if they had a chance of success (two 18-21 stacks compared to Sweden's 18). At that point, I only did it to keep them from sieging my territory and so that Finland would be friendly to me instead of wanting to throw me in a ditch.

I also had the advantage that I could monitor the rebellion as it was a border region...

There are times when it's worth it and times when it's not. I wouldn't do the same for Ruthenian rebels in Lithuania or Breton rebels in France.

However, this has basically allowed me to dominate both Sweden and Norway easily, so it's a strategic boon for me as Russia. I'm debating if I even will take Crimea now...