Is sunny Ottomans supposed to help the emperor in league wars? Then what to do?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

birincikalite

Just an outsider
47 Badges
Jan 20, 2013
2.375
664
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II
Yes. Everyone claiming that the Ottomans fought in the Thirty Years War seem to be forgetting that they did so indirectly and through a Protestant proxy, the Princes of Transylvania Gabriel Bethlen and George I Rakoczi. Non-Christians should never be directly joining either Protestant or Catholic leagues, intervention should come about through alliances with the members or separate wars.
If it was that way the Protestant side would be doomed to lose... I have yet to see a game where Protestants in Europe aren't crushed even now(though emperor still white peaces usually), with only the Ottomans doing some stuff and trying not to lose the war.

It's right they didn't care about the Protestants but the Ottoman attacks on Austria HUGELY impacted the TYW because it weakened the emperor a lot. I think this can be regarded as directly fighting for the Protestant league.
 

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.457
38.914
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
If it was that way the Protestant side would be doomed to lose... I have yet to see a game where Protestants in Europe aren't crushed even now(though emperor still white peaces usually), with only the Ottomans doing some stuff and trying not to lose the war.
I've seen the Protestants win in games where I was the Ottomans... and was completely ignoring the Germans because conquering Germany is very inefficient with regard to province count.
 

Chamboozer

Field Marshal
63 Badges
Dec 5, 2008
5.013
2.747
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Magicka
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
This doesn't really work in the mechanics of EUIV though. Until that point I think joining is a fair abstraction.

From a historical perspective definitely not - the situation was more similar to no Ottoman interference at all than to full scale invasion of Austria by all Ottoman armies. Ottoman forces were tied up on other fronts during almost the entire duration of the Thirty Years' War, with the Safavids under Shah Abbas having launched devastating campaigns against the Ottoman eastern provinces in the years leading up to 1618. By 1620, there was war with Poland and then the murder of Osman II, sending the empire into crisis with the revolt of Abaza Mehmed Pasha, then then the resumption of the Persian wars in 1624. This lasted until 1639, and the few years of peace before the outbreak of war with Venice in 1645 were occupied with Cossack attacks and rebellion in Anatolia.

Really - the Ottomans did not intervene in the Thirty Years' War. Transylvania did in their capacity to act independently of Ottoman influence. Whether or not it's good for gameplay is another matter entirely, of course.
 

FreeSoc

Kayser-i-Fun
57 Badges
Oct 2, 2013
1.742
803
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines
From a historical perspective definitely not - the situation was more similar to no Ottoman interference at all than to full scale invasion of Austria by all Ottoman armies. Ottoman forces were tied up on other fronts during almost the entire duration of the Thirty Years' War, with the Safavids under Shah Abbas having launched devastating campaigns against the Ottoman eastern provinces in the years leading up to 1618. By 1620, there was war with Poland and then the murder of Osman II, sending the empire into crisis with the revolt of Abaza Mehmed Pasha, then then the resumption of the Persian wars in 1624. This lasted until 1639, and the few years of peace before the outbreak of war with Venice in 1645 were occupied with Cossack attacks and rebellion in Anatolia.

Really - the Ottomans did not intervene in the Thirty Years' War. Transylvania did in their capacity to act independently of Ottoman influence. Whether or not it's good for gameplay is another matter entirely, of course.

Could you not argue that the Ottomans might have been keener on assisting the Protestant League and doing over Austria more thoroughly had they not, as you say, spent almost the entire period 1618-1648 involved in other major internal and external conflicts?

Or to put it more simply, was direct Ottoman involvement in the Thirty Years' War merely something that did not happen, or something that could not have happened even had there been no other major wars/internal conflicts distracting them?
 

AurochsAway

Field Marshal
55 Badges
Jan 15, 2014
4.432
697
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
From a historical perspective definitely not - the situation was more similar to no Ottoman interference at all than to full scale invasion of Austria by all Ottoman armies. Ottoman forces were tied up on other fronts during almost the entire duration of the Thirty Years' War, with the Safavids under Shah Abbas having launched devastating campaigns against the Ottoman eastern provinces in the years leading up to 1618. By 1620, there was war with Poland and then the murder of Osman II, sending the empire into crisis with the revolt of Abaza Mehmed Pasha, then then the resumption of the Persian wars in 1624. This lasted until 1639, and the few years of peace before the outbreak of war with Venice in 1645 were occupied with Cossack attacks and rebellion in Anatolia.

Really - the Ottomans did not intervene in the Thirty Years' War. Transylvania did in their capacity to act independently of Ottoman influence. Whether or not it's good for gameplay is another matter entirely, of course.

Full scale invasions are themselves a gameplay abstraction, as real life didn't have a warscore mechanic. In the game however, the Ottomans can still be tied up on other fronts if the situation calls for it, as with what happened in real life. No way to simulate assassinations though, although young kings can die and I suppose you can consider those assassinations.
 

Chamboozer

Field Marshal
63 Badges
Dec 5, 2008
5.013
2.747
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Magicka
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
was direct Ottoman involvement in the Thirty Years' War merely something that did not happen, or something that could not have happened even had there been no other major wars/internal conflicts distracting them?

The Ottomans weren't deeply connected enough into European diplomatic networks (particularly Northern European Protestant ones) to ever be roped into any kind of formal alliance, even if they would have desired such a thing. There'd have been nothing preventing opportunistic intervention though, perhaps at the behest of some prince.

However that's not the point I was trying to make. In every thread on this topic someone brings up the "historical" argument that the Ottomans intervened in the Thirty Years' War in reality, but that's just not true.