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Urza1234

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Wrong, 2016 world census data https://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=xx&v=25 says that there were 18.5 births per 1000 people. Given 7 billion people, that's 129 million births in a year.

Wrong again, cars are not harder to make than a robot. Robots are much more complicated, and will have a far higher defect rate. The computer chips alone that run the robot will have an exponentially higher defect rate than a typical onboard car computer.

Please, stop making things up to support your argument that you can't support with facts.
Agree, cars are also highly specialized machines that essentially do 1 thing, and have a globally maintained infrastructure designed to facilitate their use.
Comparing cars to autonomous robots... notice how we cant even get self-driving cars to work?

Making a single human takes at least around 9 months of labor, then 15 years of care and instructions.
This is also a bit... sheltered?
9 months of labor is an exaggeration. Outside of like the top 3 most generous countries, most places dont even come close to offering 9 months of maternity leave, which is expected to stretch partially after childbirth as well.
In less entitled times and places, women are expected to perform some sort of labor pretty much right up until the point where they give birth, and then keep going pretty much right after. Remember that even the most encumbered pregnant woman can still do valuable non-strenuous work with their hands.

15 years of training? Phew thats a whopper. I mean firstly, if you want to be naive about it in modern developed countries we only offer that much education because we want to develop a highly skilled and highly flexible workforce, including a good amount of fluff that can only be considered useful for "citizenship", ie participating in a Democracy.
If you have lower and probably more accurate estimations of modern educational practices, we have 15 years of baby-sitting paid by the state.
In terms of less entitled times and places; kids work. If they cant do the highly strenuous stuff, insert previous comments about their ability to do tasks with their hands, or watching animals or w/e.
In terms of slaves, you would never want to train a slave for 15 years, good god no. You want to train a slave to do that slave's task and nothing else. The more skills, knowledge, and ability a slave has; the more agency and bargaining power a slave has. Dependency and a lack of options are the main ways that people are kept as slaves.
 
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Avian Overlord

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In terms of slaves, you would never want to train a slave for 15 years, good god no. You want to train a slave to do that slave's task and nothing else. The more skills, knowledge, and ability a slave has; the more agency and bargaining power a slave has. Dependency and a lack of options are the main ways that people are kept as slaves.
Which is, shall we say, somewhat problematic in a technologically advanced economy.
 

Urza1234

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Which is, shall we say, somewhat problematic in a technologically advanced economy.
Depends, you dont need to know how to design and manufacture a sewing machine, a synthetic polymer fabric, or a shoe, in order to work in a sweat-shop. Even most of the jobs that the 1st-class citizens of the 1st world have dont require a minuscule fraction of all the knowledge they're presented with over that 15 years or so of "training".
Technologically advanced economies come with technologically advanced tools, that frequently facilitate many of the tasks required to run that economy, to the point of simplicity. Even if a task requires skill or knowledge, usually the skill or knowledge required is actually extremely narrow, thus is not necessarily applicable to other tasks, and thus the dependency continues to apply.

Additionally, when comparing economies of different levels of development, power, and technological complexity, the conditions that incentivize slavery are not that the economy depends on tasks with a specifically quantitatively low level of complexity. Rather it is incentivized by having a population with significantly relatively less value and power than others, that can thusly perform tasks more cheaply than the alternative people, plant assets and/or infrastructure could.
To put it more simply, slaves today might have more skills than slaves 200 years ago did, but the 1st class citizens that they're competing against have relatively so much more knowledge, agency, power, and value; that it makes no difference.

The modern world is literally a poster child for slavery existing, despite its illegality, despite global agreement of its immorality, and despite the technological and energetic abundance required to eliminate it. Our technological development and advancement if anything only incentivizes slavery, due to the uneven distribution of knowledge, wealth and power. Essentially, its ridiculous how little value can be placed on a sapient life.

Is it more difficult to imagine a future in which all such inequalities and imbalances of value or power are eliminated to the point that slavery of any kind becomes impractical? Or is it more difficult to imagine a future in which slavery and exploitation continue, but are facilitated and leveraged by technologically complex tools?
 
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bmt17

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Is slavery realistic? Why enslave biological lifeforms if is possible to make advanced and tougher robots (more in sense of automation than of androids) and machines?

Sorry, I have wrote this topic wrong, I was refering about automation in general and more on chattel slavery, why using larger pops of biological pops with "pickaxes" and with manual laber if machines are much more efficient (i guess) ?
Control, tradition, racism?

Like much of this game slavery is presented as an abstract construct, you can consider it to be enslaved laborers and compare them to automated machinery or like others have said you can even call the slaves the technicians and mechanics that keep the machines running...

I consider it more an element of the political system, the slaves are the segment of an empire's population who lack the freedoms that the normal citizens enjoy. This could be because of their race, their caste or simply because they are not high ranking members of the fascist state party. They may be mining engineers or retail workers or theoretical physicists working in a research university but they are not given the same rights or enjoy the same freedom for whatever reason that a free citizen is.
 
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kirell

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Also no, depends on production capability. A single factory can churn out thousands of cars, for example. If, in the future, making a robot is as easy as making a car, production rates are enormously bigger.
No, it cant. There is a huge supply chain behind that single factory, the factory usually just combines parts produced by others , which use parts produced elsewhere, which use materials mined or processed elsewhere (depending on the part, add a few extra steps)
 

Tisifoni12

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Over here in the West we have complex machines being made to replace McDonalds workers, because of the value our laws, society, and economics force us to place on even the lowest workers. Meanwhile in some of the ex-Soviet states you have undocumented refugees from Syria etc. being enslaved for work in factories, and in East Asia you have people being effectively enslaved in textile and electronics production.

I wasn't saying it is 'just about energy', I was attempting to say what you said above; where it is more efficient and economic to employ one man with a mini digger to dig a trench than six labourers, then a man with a mini digger it will be. Where it is more efficient and economic to employ an AI controlled robotic mini digger on its own . . .

Returning to something I've written about before, that Stellaris species tend to be tropes. It seems to be 'our species are slavers because they are slavers' rather than 'our species' ethics allow for slavery where it is an economically viable alternative to free labour or robots / AI controlled robotic systems'.

Of course where slave workers are not a viable alternative to free labour or robots / AI controlled robotic systems a conquered alien population may be subjected to displacement or extermination rather than enslavement.
 

TheAtreides84

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Is slavery realistic? Why enslave biological lifeforms if is possible to make advanced and tougher robots (more in sense of automation than of androids) and machines?

Sorry, I have wrote this topic wrong, I was refering about automation in general and more on chattel slavery, why using larger pops of biological pops with "pickaxes" and with manual laber if machines are much more efficient (i guess) ?

For purely economical reasons, chattel slavery is inefficient even at industrial revolution technological level. It requires providing for all the slave's needs (food, shelter, very basic healthcare) and for security, while not providing any incentive to work hard (you can't fire a slave. You can harm him, but then you're damaging your property).

On the other hand, wage slavery is quite alive in our era, and it could very well be in all non-post-scarcity societies. Wage slaves may cost less than robots to "produce" and maintain. Slavery in the game can represent a wide range of extremely unequal work conditions, so it's not really just Uncle Tom's Cabin slavery. Also, a society can consciously adopt an inefficient economical system for other reasons (pride, tradition, enforcing a particular ideological/religion vision and so on)
 

stumason

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To answer the OP's question, there may be ideological or religious reasons to use slaves or not use robots. In terms of the game, it is there as an option that you can use if you so wish and is there as it is a common sci-fi trope.

Personally, I don't think of it as slavery as we understand it - guys in loincloths, toiling away with pick axes for 18 hours a day, all while being whipped and then sleeping in a hut with 50 others.

For me, it just represents their position in society. My slaves are usually given decent conditions and I imagine them more as indentured workers doing tasks that may be complex (such as operating machinery in a mine) or beneath the citizens to do (service workers etc). Beyond that, they get to live "normal" lives, they just don't have the right to vote, migrate or otherwise engage with the society at large, as they have no right, being filthy xenos. More akin to serfdom than outright slavery. In my empires the slaves get, in exchange for their labour and obedience, protection from the dangers of the universe and the right to exist - I'm not a monster, I only purge when absolutely necessary!
 

Acheron

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Regarding slaves versus robots, couldn't one argue that slaves are vastly more flexible than dumb robots (not synths obviously)? At least currently a machine has to be build to specific tasks in narrow circumstances, a sapient mind is vastly more flexible and adaptable. A machine with such traits would IMHO bring us into droid and synth territory.

Also, another point we may not have sufficiently discussed yet regarding slave jobs: danger
Construction, mining, off-shore drilling and such, aren't there plenty of jobs than are inherently dangerous and require elaborate and expensive safety measures? With slaves, one could do away with these.
 

stumason

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Also, another point we may not have sufficiently discussed yet regarding slave jobs: danger
Construction, mining, off-shore drilling and such, aren't there plenty of jobs than are inherently dangerous and require elaborate and expensive safety measures? With slaves, one could do away with these.

Indeed, which would make the operation quite a bit cheaper if you didn't have to worry too much about Elf and Safety, increasing margins as long as the cost to replace a slave was less than the Elf and Safety measures would be to implement.
 

Tisifoni12

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n my empires the slaves get, in exchange for their labour and obedience, protection from the dangers of the universe and the right to exist
If there's a sort of social contract to this and they aren't 'property' or 'prisoners taken in war' then is it 'slavery' ?

Slavery is different things in different players heads, ranging from 'people' being worked to death in labour camps to 'people' who are ostensibly free but have limited employment options, low pay and limited or no options to improve their circumstances. Perhaps there could be more nuance ?

'People' here obv. includes any sentient species.
 
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stumason

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If there's a sort of social contract to this and they aren't 'property' or 'prisoners' then is it 'slavery' ?

it's slavery, in my head canon anyway, because they ultimately have no choice in the matter. I think serfs is a better description though.

Slavery is different things in different players heads, ranging from 'people' being worked to death in labour camps to 'people' who are ostensibly free but have limited employment options, low pay and limited or no options to improve their circumstances. Perhaps there could be more nuance ?

'People' here obv. includes any sentient species.

Indeed and that's the beauty of it, it's left down to us as the player to imagine how it is going down. That said, I'd like to see a "soft slavery" option, such as serfdom, but I can RP that anyway. There's quite a good mod on the workshop were you can restrict species to certain strata while keeping them full citizens or residence without enslaving outright, which i think fits my play/RP canon better.
 

TheAtreides84

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it's slavery, in my head canon anyway, because they ultimately have no choice in the matter. I think serfs is a better description though.



Indeed and that's the beauty of it, it's left down to us as the player to imagine how it is going down. That said, I'd like to see a "soft slavery" option, such as serfdom, but I can RP that anyway. There's quite a good mod on the workshop were you can restrict species to certain strata while keeping them full citizens or residence without enslaving outright, which i think fits my play/RP canon better.

Could you link the mod, please?
 

Secret Master

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Part of the problem with this discussion is that the icons and game interface encourage players to view slavery in very narrow terms.

Slaves have an icon on them that shows manacles and chains. Under the older versions of the game, enslaving a single POP on a tile produced a bullwhip sound. And there are governors with a manacle icon that shows a trait that increases slave output.

The game encourages slavery to be viewed in these terms:

ant-prisoner-chains-ball-working-hard-breaking-rocks-prison-chain-metal-work-stones-as-penalty-31983719.jpg


Obviously, in a technologically advanced space faring civilization, this kind of "slavery" makes little sense. We don't even mine like that now, let alone using technology hundreds of years in the future.

But if you consider slavery in broader terms than just using manual labor to break rocks or pick crops, slavery in the Stellaris universe could make sense.

Some simple societal attributes that would produce slavery in the Stellaris sense:

1) Do the POPs in question have restrictions on employment? For example, are they disallowed from certain kinds of jobs merely on the basis of being a certain kind of species?

2) Do the POPs in question have restrictions on their movement between jobs and/or locations? Can they quit their job at Space McDonalds and start working at Space Wendys of their own free will? Can they move from Earth to Vulcan to find a better job, or just because they want to?

3) Do the POPs in question have legal rights of any kind? Are they considered property?

4) Can the POPs in question own their own property?

Depending on how you answer these questions, the population in question might be with slaves in the Stellaris sense of the term. Slaves in Stellaris are property of their owners/the state. They do not have freedom to pick their employment, and they are further restricted from certain kinds of employment altogether. They have no legal rights at all. They may be moved freely by their owners, and they cannot move of their own will. And they cannot own their own property. This last one is relevant for people playing Stellaris. Slaves require less consumer goods upkeep and fewer housing/amenities. This is one of the big attractions to the system. While at the empire level, we just see a reduction in consumer goods and amenities, at the level of individuals, those people have few or no goods at all, get little in the way of amenities, and their housing is crap. And this is not a question of negotiating wages in a bad economy, but it is a matter of law. The slaves do not have the right to negotiate their labor with employers at all. And on top of that, they can be implanted with mind altering implants via the Slave Processing facility against their will.

So, the slaves aren't swinging pick axes to mine minerals. They may be running computers with Excel on them (remember, clerks can be enslaved!), or running vapor collecting machines on Tatooine, farming the atmosphere for moisture to make farming viable. But they are slaves all the same if their meet most or all of the criteria I indicated above.
 

Arcvalons

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Religious reasons for one.

People also reproduce faster than you can build robots, plus why not have people and robots as slaves.

In fact, it makes no sense to not enslave people if you are enslaving robots. A typical slave society has a few on top who are not slaves, and everyone else is a slave caste. This is because each person who owns slaves doesn't own a fraction of one, or even just one. They own a whole number of them to do work for them.

Those societies that tried to do this with robots only, ended up the trophies of the rogue servitors.

Only in Stellaris people reproduce faster than robots are built, realistically it would be faster to produce robots.
 

Tisifoni12

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I just took a look at the Stellaris Wiki and it says for both grades of Authoritarian 'can enslave aliens', so it would appear to no longer treat caste systems or less formalised inequality (wage slavery) as 'slavery'.

"Put the Gnurx to work in the mines !"

"But sir they're fungoids who are completely incapable of using mining tools. And I think they're bigger than tunnels . . ."
 
Last edited:

Urza1234

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Only in Stellaris people reproduce faster than robots are built, realistically it would be faster to produce robots.
It could be faster in Stellaris if your Roboticist job wasnt capped per planet. Your mineral costs might be ridiculous, but you could pump out as many robos as you could afford to.