Is slavery realistic?

[kirell]

Why do slaves have to be restricted to physical labor? Why not have slaves toil away in telemarketing or retail (feel free to hit the store employee if he gives you lip). Slaves in general would be useful for jobs that most people CAN do but most people do not WANT to do.

I imagine slaves would be used mostly in such jobs. Basically, i would take a look at the low payed sector today and ask: Which jobs wouldn't also or even work better with slaves? Waiters, service personel etc. that perfectly incorperate the brand and are bred/designed to be great at their job etc.

That's why I said little to no rest. And terrible is relative. Let me rephrase it: they have worse working conditions and less rest as long as it let them produce more.

Would be a trade-off between productivity peak and productivity lifetime...

 

[Ashantai]

A reminder to keep this focussed on the game and on topic.

 

[Ivashanko]

I suspect that the mass use of manual unmodified slaves is extremely unlikely, but greatly modified slaves (cyborgs that lack the ability to resist, for example) or trophy slaves are possible.

 

[sortulv]

Advantages of slaves:
- You can safely put lots of hours in training them - they are not going to quit and start working for the competition.

Disadvantages of slaves:
- Increased requirements for security
- Increased startup costs to aquire workers.

Beyond that it tends to be more a matter of how you treat the slaves, and in many cases what laws are in place for how they are treated. Chattel slavery tends to be more alike the American low wage-slaves (working long hours, and hating the employer )
Lifestock... Well, considering that is smart-cows... I have serious problems figuring out how that actually works - by which I mean why let them remain sentient? The only explaination I could see is that they might be working as farmers, but then they should have needed farming districts?

 

[Ivashanko]

Advantages of slaves:
- You can safely put lots of hours in training them - they are not going to quit and start working for the competition.

Disadvantages of slaves:
- Increased requirements for security
- Increased startup costs to aquire workers.

Beyond that it tends to be more a matter of how you treat the slaves, and in many cases what laws are in place for how they are treated. Chattel slavery tends to be more alike the American low wage-slaves (working long hours, and hating the employer )
Lifestock... Well, considering that is smart-cows... I have serious problems figuring out how that actually works - by which I mean why let them remain sentient? The only explaination I could see is that they might be working as farmers, but then they should have needed farming districts?

These advantages don't hold up when compared to machines. Any intergalactic civ likely has machines that can do nearly any job better than unmodified organics can.

Honestly I suspect that by the time intergalactic travel is possible (assuming it is possible) unmodified organics will no longer be able to even find work because machines/modified (genetically or through cybernetic enhancements) humans will do every potential job exponentially better than unmodified organics.

 

[Koopatin]

a society might consider slavery a good thing (xeno slavery that is). Think maybe babylon 5 centauri. they brought civilization to the narn, but of course narn where not equal. no race would be considered equal and should be happy to be part of the empire.. but only as servants.. those empires would know robots would be better for a lot of jobs but they do want to help those aliens to be part of something bigger. but those aliens have to work for the right.. never mind that they never asked for it or wanted it.

slave is a term used in game but i would guess not every race would see it as slavery but as... release of the illusion of freedom and chance to become part of something bigger.

something along those lines.

 

[Urza1234]

I think you are using an outdated view on slavery. Think of slavery, with education being mandatory. It isn't exactly without parallel in the real world. About as political as I'd go is the suicide nets being installed at foxcon. (People don't off themselves in such numbers if they think they have options)

I basically view it as you have an educated involuntary workforce using some robotics or automated systems.

I have to second this. The potrayal in this thread of sci-fi 23rd to 26th century slavery, with slaves doing farming and mining with sticks and rocks, is laughable.

Slavery is about society, not tools.

 

[sortulv]

These advantages don't hold up when compared to machines. Any intergalactic civ likely has machines that can do nearly any job better than unmodified organics can.

Honestly I suspect that by the time intergalactic travel is possible (assuming it is possible) unmodified organics will no longer be able to even find work because machines/modified (genetically or through cybernetic enhancements) humans will do every potential job exponentially better thab unmodified organics.

There is no requirements that a slave would be unmodified. From the point of view of a corporation, modifying a slave makes a lot more sense than modifying a freeman. After all, you can breed your modifications to sell on with a slave. In many of my games I have cyborg slaves - which the government requires that the owners pay for.

 

[MeowBeep]

Firstly, bless you all who think slavery wouldn't exist.

But, sorry, of course slavery would exist in some empires. If a free pop with full citizen rights can meaningfully contribute to a Stellaris empire, then so could an enslaved one.

Sure in a highly robotic society they might be redundant, but what're the spiritualists to do?

Maybe some xeno really are delicious, I mean, some people eat dolphins for that reason.

Slavery was universally accepted until a few hundred years ago, and even now there are more slaves than ever. So I don't think it is something that you can say would certainly not exist in any form in any Stellaris empire.

 

[MinhowMinhow]

I see, good answers, is mainly for the use of unwanted labor, not mainly chattel slavery and education for slaves can be used to improve them.
But about chattel slavery is, the question: why use biological pops if robots (not androids, more in sense of automation, like the machines used nowadays) can be much more efficient (I guess). I see the slaves operating these machines and maintaining them, but even by it, seems a bit weird.
And yes, people can be evil with each other, slavery still exists nowadays, so enslaving aliens isn't a hard thing to do, so this can be a option to exist in future, but is this efficient?
I know that Stellaris isn't a realistic game, but I like to roleplay like a "Future Simulator", so thats the question.

 

[Chthon]

No? If we take humans as baseline slave, it takes 15 years or so to grow a human capable of meaningful amounts of physical work. Of course the very notion of physical work in 2200+ is absurd, so...

But as others said Stellaris doesn't try to be realistic so it's all ok.

If you consider a single person to a single robot you'd be right. The problem is you aren't thinking right.

People are grown in parallel, and can be grown in parallel more massively than robots can, as robots require an entire factory to produce, a human just requires a mother and optionally a father.

Due to the requirements of construction, humans will always reproduce faster than they can produce robots.

As for physical work, there's nothing saying that physical work can't be done with machines operated by selectively educated slaves as put forward by others here. There are even examples in our world right now.

 

[Chthon]

https://www.state.gov/j/tip/what/

I'm taking some stuff from here of examples of modern slavery in the world to show how it can evolve past just bare physical labor.

Bonded Labor or Debt Bondage:
One form of coercion used by traffickers in both sex trafficking and forced labor is the imposition of a bond or debt. Some workers inherit debt; for example, in South Asia it is estimated that there are millions of trafficking victims working to pay off their ancestors’ debts. Others fall victim to traffickers or recruiters who unlawfully exploit an initial debt assumed, wittingly or unwittingly, as a term of employment. Traffickers, labor agencies, recruiters, and employers in both the country of origin and the destination country can contribute to debt bondage by charging workers recruitment fees and exorbitant interest rates, making it difficult, if not impossible, to pay off the debt. Such circumstances may occur in the context of employment-based temporary work programs in which a worker’s legal status in the destination country is tied to the employer so workers fear seeking redress.

There was actually an instance of this form of slavery in the United States just recently, New Prime Inc. has a class action suit against them for effectively making their employees slaves to their system by forcing them to incur unreasonable debts and work for next to nothing or even negative amounts. Read more about it in the news.

This kind of slavery can happen with education debts as well, so you can have educated people who are forced by the government to work off their debts until paid, or even if creative, for the rest of their lives. No physical labor actually needed.

Domestic Servitude:
Involuntary domestic servitude is a form of human trafficking found in distinct circumstances—work in a private residence—that create unique vulnerabilities for victims. It is a crime in which a domestic worker is not free to leave his or her employment and is abused and underpaid, if paid at all. Many domestic workers do not receive the basic benefits and protections commonly extended to other groups of workers—things as simple as a day off. Moreover, their ability to move freely is often limited, and employment in private homes increases their isolation and vulnerability. Labor officials generally do not have the authority to inspect employment conditions in private homes. Domestic workers, especially women, confront various forms of abuse, harassment, and exploitation, including sexual and gender-based violence. These issues, taken together, may be symptoms of a situation of domestic servitude. When the employer of a domestic worker has diplomatic status and enjoys immunity from civil and/or criminal jurisdiction, the vulnerability to domestic servitude is enhanced.

Here we have the kind of slavery that would result in the clerk job. Plain and simple. Now you know why clerks exist, to serve the upper classes.

Unlawful Recruitment and Use of Child Soldiers:
Child soldiering is a manifestation of human trafficking when it involves the unlawful recruitment or use of children—through force, fraud, or coercion—by armed forces as combatants or other forms of labor. Perpetrators may be government armed forces, paramilitary organizations, or rebel groups. Many children are forcibly abducted to be used as combatants. Others are made to work as porters, cooks, guards, servants, messengers, or spies. Young girls may be forced to “marry” or be raped by commanders and male combatants. Both male and female child soldiers are often sexually abused or exploited by armed groups and such children are subject to the same types of devastating physical and psychological consequences associated with child sex trafficking.

This one I put in because as despicable as it is, this is just an example of how children can be indoctrinated to a system where they are slaves and are made to think like slaves. They don't know that they are giving up their freedom or that what is being done to them is wrong. Many may go through their entire life without questioning the system.

Please note, this is just an example of human cruelty, who knows what other atrocities alien life can learn to commit on the journey to getting someone else to do what you don't want to have to do.

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

People are grown in parallel, and can be grown in parallel more massively than robots can, as robots require an entire factory to produce, a human just requires a mother and optionally a father.

Also no, depends on production capability. A single factory can churn out thousands of cars, for example. If, in the future, making a robot is as easy as making a car, production rates are enormously bigger. Making a single human takes at least around 9 months of labor, then 15 years of care and instructions.

Right now, circa 100 millions of cars are produced every year, and this is only for a product that HAS to find a customer. The current average population increase is estimated at 82 million people per year.

 

[Kravoka]

Lifestock... Well, considering that is smart-cows... I have serious problems figuring out how that actually works - by which I mean why let them remain sentient? The only explaination I could see is that they might be working as farmers, but then they should have needed farming districts?

1. A sapient slave can be taught not only to stay docile and controlled, but also to actively prepare its body to be healthy and delicious.
2. Regular mass produced food is only grown, shipped and consumed because of the unfortunate realities of interstellar travel. Anything is a welcome substitute.

 

[admiral-krause]

I have a philosophical question regarding Livestock.

If i use plantoid lifeforms as my base and genetically engineer a tasty walking gourd with nerve staple. Am i a vegan? It doesnt suffer and does exactly what its meant to be: beeing tasty.

 

[Tisifoni12]

Act

Religious reasons for one.

People also reproduce faster than you can build robots, plus why not have people and robots as slaves.

In fact, it makes no sense to not enslave people if you are enslaving robots. A typical slave society has a few on top who are not slaves, and everyone else is a slave caste. This is because each person who owns slaves doesn't own a fraction of one, or even just one. They own a whole number of them to do work for them.

Actually in historical slave owning societies slaves were a minority, perhaps a significant minority, but a minority. Some people owned many slaves, but most free people owned none.

That people reproduce faster than you can build robots is an assumption.

 

[Tisifoni12]

Many societies where the primary source of energy / labour is muscle power had slaves.

Once you have industrialisation and fossil fuel and beyond that more advanced energy sources and technologies, then slavery tends to become uneconomic. Unless the economy is 'stressed' and slavery becomes a substitute for the energy, technology or free labour that are in shortage.

Slavery may be something that is resorted to rather than an inherant 'ethic'.

And yes a species may have different attitudes to different other species; eat plantoids, enslave insectoids, exterminate fungoids, but reptilians are people like us !

 

[Urza1234]

Many societies where the primary source of energy / labour is muscle power had slaves.

Once you have industrialisation and fossil fuel and beyond that more advanced energy sources and technologies, then slavery tends to become uneconomic. Unless the economy is 'stressed' and slavery becomes a substitute for the energy, technology or free labour that are in shortage.

Slavery may be something that is resorted to rather than an inherant 'ethic'.

And yes a species may have different attitudes to different other species; eat plantoids, enslave insectoids, exterminate fungoids, but reptilians are people like us !

In terms of the economics of it, its not just about energy. That motive power is but one of the gaps in an economy that slavery can fill.
Economically, slavery really just becomes viable any time that the worth of certain people is less than that of the machines it would take to replace them, or whatever other alternatives you have.

Over here in the West we have complex machines being made to replace McDonalds workers, because of the value our laws, society, and economics force us to place on even the lowest workers. Meanwhile in some of the ex-Soviet states you have undocumented refugees from Syria etc. being enslaved for work in factories, and in East Asia you have people being effectively enslaved in textile and electronics production.

There isnt much of a difference between here and there in terms of the technology or energy available to us, but there are huge differences in the value being placed on the workers involved.

Oh yeah, almost forgot about all the migrant laborers in California and such that are essentially slaves. Having lived in and around Salinas, and having seen literal migrant shacks on people's properties, and the special cattle trucks used to ship them around from field to field, cant believe that slipped my mind.
So yeah, we do it too.

 

[Chthon]

Also no, depends on production capability. A single factory can churn out thousands of cars, for example. If, in the future, making a robot is as easy as making a car, production rates are enormously bigger. Making a single human takes at least around 9 months of labor, then 15 years of care and instructions.

Right now, circa 100 millions of cars are produced every year, and this is only for a product that HAS to find a customer. The current average population increase is estimated at 82 million people per year.

Wrong, 2016 world census data https://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=xx&v=25 says that there were 18.5 births per 1000 people. Given 7 billion people, that's 129 million births in a year.

Wrong again, cars are not harder to make than a robot. Robots are much more complicated, and will have a far higher defect rate. The computer chips alone that run the robot will have an exponentially higher defect rate than a typical onboard car computer.

Please, stop making things up to support your argument that you can't support with facts.

 

[Chthon]

Many societies where the primary source of energy / labour is muscle power had slaves.

Once you have industrialisation and fossil fuel and beyond that more advanced energy sources and technologies, then slavery tends to become uneconomic. Unless the economy is 'stressed' and slavery becomes a substitute for the energy, technology or free labour that are in shortage.

Slavery may be something that is resorted to rather than an inherant 'ethic'.

And yes a species may have different attitudes to different other species; eat plantoids, enslave insectoids, exterminate fungoids, but reptilians are people like us !

You do know we have legal slavery right here and now in the US, in the form of our federal penitentiary system right? It's more economic for us to detain and enslave dissidents to our laws, than to allow them to run amok.