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MinhowMinhow

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Is slavery realistic? Why enslave biological lifeforms if is possible to make advanced and tougher robots (more in sense of automation than of androids) and machines?

Sorry, I have wrote this topic wrong, I was refering about automation in general and more on chattel slavery, why using larger pops of biological pops with "pickaxes" and with manual laber if machines are much more efficient (i guess) ?
 
Last edited:

Chthon

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Is slavery realistic? Why enslave biological lifeforms if is possible to make advanced and tough robots?
Religious reasons for one.

People also reproduce faster than you can build robots, plus why not have people and robots as slaves.

In fact, it makes no sense to not enslave people if you are enslaving robots. A typical slave society has a few on top who are not slaves, and everyone else is a slave caste. This is because each person who owns slaves doesn't own a fraction of one, or even just one. They own a whole number of them to do work for them.

Those societies that tried to do this with robots only, ended up the trophies of the rogue servitors.
 

Highlordelliot

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Is slavery realistic? Why enslave biological lifeforms if is possible to make advanced and tough robots?
I think we had this discussion several times and the conclusion was that if this was a very realistic game no. But its a pulpy space opera sci fi 4x grand strategy game and that it just wouldn't feel right if people weren't being enslave by space mushrooms for some alien reason.
 

Adantigus

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In all likelihood, the fact that pops do any physical labor in the era portrayed in this game is a bit unrealistic. And it's looking more and more like a lot of our non-physical labor will be automated too. So from that standpoint, it would be more realistic to only play as rogue servitors or other gestalt empires.

Looking at human history, some people (such as Du Bois) have argued that the real "value" of slavery was not any economic benefits, but the sense of superiority it imparts on all of the non-slaves, including even those who never themselves owned a slave. In other words, as long as some people in a given society have a status as sub-human, even a lowly failure of a person can feel like they aren't totally worthless, because they aren't at the bottom of the pile. This is one explanation sometimes given for why large numbers of people who did not own slaves and were even economically harmed by having to compete against free slave labor still fought to preserve the institution of slavery.

But never forget that Stellaris is about simulating empires based on classic science fiction tropes, not an attempt at realistically predicting future society. Because huge numbers of slaves are nearly ubiquitous in science fiction, and are often depicted doing manual labor like mining and farming using very primitive tools, the same thing is very fitting in Stellaris. Having slavery in this game fulfills several common trope fantasies:

1) The horrible, oppressive slaver empire that dominates all.
2) The xenophobic overlords that tolerate aliens only if they are servile.
3) The nihilistic culture that will do anything for money, no matter how vile.
4) The glorious, shining liberators who free the enslaved and oppressed everywhere, because you can't be a beacon of goodness unless somewhere else there is a darkness to shine against.

etc.
 

James_K

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My view is that it is not. Slaves are best used for unskilled manual labour, and the amount of that is steadily decreasing. I could imagine a society that maintained a small amoutn fo slaves as domestic servants, but an interstellar economy won't need many farmers, miners of menial factor workers.
 

Mavkiel

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I think you are using an outdated view on slavery. Think of slavery, with education being mandatory. It isn't exactly without parallel in the real world. About as political as I'd go is the suicide nets being installed at foxcon. (People don't off themselves in such numbers if they think they have options)

I basically view it as you have an educated involuntary workforce using some robotics or automated systems.
 

kirell

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Slaves are low maintainance self-replicating bio-robots. People tend to forget that machines and robots require a complex supply chain to get produced. Slaves need food, water and air. You can breed or genetically modifiy them directly for various needs. They don't even need that much oversight anymore, given the technological advences in automatic surveillance, image recognition and behaviour analysis. Also so much easier to withhold information and power if e.g. you need a VR implant and citizen clearance to access relevant information in the first place. Add a motivation system (e.g. social mobility in the slave caste, or a merit-based lottery, or something like the chinese point system) and you are set...
 

Kravoka

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Because a corruptible internet personality has less hurdles in terms of brainpower and efficiency than a general purpose mechanical servant who can safely move around in the chaos of three dimension. Looking at the workarounds:

-Biobrain: Forsakes many advantages of a full robot.
-Remote Server Control: Massive security hazard.
-Telekinesis Puppet: Only useful as a short distance tool due to issues with conservation of force.
-Telepathy Puppet: Your brain is designed to automate movement. Now imagine manually controlling every limb of a body you have no familiarity with.

The more uncertain a situation, the more quantum computing becomes a necessity (this is why gaming AIs are so bad). As it turns out, the only way for you to replicate the chaos lurking inside our neurons inside a package that doesn't utterly hamper movement is to tap into controlled particle-antiparticle reactions. Consider all the safety hazards, energy requirements and heat issues that requires.
 

Derp

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do you want to make a list of unrealistic things in stellaris? because slavery won't be at the top of the list
 

ImaTomato

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A typical slave society has a few on top who are not slaves, and everyone else is a slave caste

I don't think you now how slavery worked.Most of the time the slaves were a minority in anicent rome,the arabic caliphates,the ottoman empire or the USA.
 

HandicapdHippo

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Stellaris isn't a realistic game, it's explicitly in the vein of soft sci fi, huge populations slaving away in mines despite the better technology available is an old sci fi trope, and that's why it's in.
 

Avian Overlord

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Not particularly. Slaves are generally agreed to be less productive than free workers, unlike in Stellaris. Especially given that anyone in an economy as technologically advanced as those in Stellaris is going to be operating pretty complex machinery (think oil rig workers, not guys with pickaxes). Still, I could see a future society using slavery for what is represented in Stellaris as the change in pop living standards and political power.
 

Mikhail_Mengsk

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People also reproduce faster than you can build robots

No? If we take humans as baseline slave, it takes 15 years or so to grow a human capable of meaningful amounts of physical work. Of course the very notion of physical work in 2200+ is absurd, so...

But as others said Stellaris doesn't try to be realistic so it's all ok.
 

kirell

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My head canon is that workers just push buttons and levers, controlling the machines. And slaves do exactly the same just with little to no rest and in terrible life conditions.

Why terrible life conditions and no rest? You want to optimize your slaves productivity, which will rarely be working them till they drop dead. There might be fringe cases where this is useful, but rarely so (only if slaves are abundant and worthless). This isn't the Cotton-Picking Slavery of old age, with a evil guy crackling the whip.
 

Acheron

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Why do slaves have to be restricted to physical labor? Why not have slaves toil away in telemarketing or retail (feel free to hit the store employee if he gives you lip). Slaves in general would be useful for jobs that most people CAN do but most people do not WANT to do.
 

Vitruvian Guar

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Why terrible life conditions and no rest? You want to optimize your slaves productivity, which will rarely be working them till they drop dead. There might be fringe cases where this is useful, but rarely so (only if slaves are abundant and worthless). This isn't the Cotton-Picking Slavery of old age, with a evil guy crackling the whip.

That's why I said little to no rest. And terrible is relative. Let me rephrase it: they have worse working conditions and less rest as long as it let them produce more.