Is Sengoku too war-focused?

[Tkrens]

While realizing that this specific period in Japanese history contains a lot of warfare, I sometimes do wonder if there is much else in this particular game other than warfare. When not at war, there really isn't much else to do at all. Your family does not require much maintenance. You just need assure that you have a bunch of kids, which is easily done by handily picking a wife from a list, kids follow shortly. Diplomacy seems a bit dumbed down and simple. Declaring war has practically no consequences other than a loss of honor. Economically we can only upgrade the castle and village levels of our provinces.

Perhaps I am a tad too used to Europa Universalis 3? Where war is a decision not easily made and often carries many, many negative consequences while at the same time, there is plenty to do in the game when you're not at war.

In Sengoku I find myself dragging around numbers across a (pretty, that must be said) map in an almost Risk-esque fashion. Especially if you're a vassal, you just sit around and wait until your clan lord declares war and you may be able to grab a province or two for yourself.

How do other people feel about this? Is there enough to do in this game?

 

[The Disaster]

I have been reaching the same conclusion, especially as a period of gradual growth, frantic diplomacy and occasional warfare on my part was rewarded with the shattering discovery that another clan (Uesugi) had in the meantime painted three quarters of Japan in their own colour!

My problem has been that I have approached Sengoku like 'EU, but set in Japan'. So that's my fault, not the game's. I have had no luck with plots or with getting a Daimyo to join my clan, but that is probably down to me being stuck in an EU rut rather than any failing on the part of Sengoku. This game really does require a substantial mindshift for those who are used to earlier games!

 

[Pippin123]

Well, the Sen kanji in Sengoku DOES mean "War"...

Joking aside, perception do matter: this is not EU3 in Japan.
It's a game about a brutal civil war in one specific country, in a setting where might makes right.

 

[unmerged(10501)]

Yea, probably. I've been reading a bit, and historically speaking that period was extremely upheaval and war was the natural state of the "country".

Like "The Disaster", I approached the game peaceably but looks like I need to be warier and use the levies more often.

Regards

 

[Johan]

Yes?

Its a game about a civil war.

 

[Tkrens]

Edit : Eep, a Johan has replied to my post. My arguments are invalid now =(

I suppose you all have a point. It is indeed a big civil war, and it's indeed not EU3 in Japan. But it still feels a bit as if I'm playing some sort of more complicated form of risk. Even in a civil war one wonders about food supplies, the production if all the weapons needed to field those tens of thousands soldiers. Other things come to mind aswell! It just feels to me as if more aspects of Japanese feudal live could have been inserted into the game. Perhaps something for expansions or patches?

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

Accusing PI games for having periods of utter boredom is like accusing the Sun for being bright.

That said, it`s a dumbed down version of Crusader Kings. Lot less micromanagement (I DON`T miss all these "Education for your child"-events) and warfare-focused. The AI is a bit weird, though. My Clan Lord is at war with another Clan, but instead of simply sieging one of these darn Castles, he let his armies march back and forth between provinces A and B.

EDIT:

OMG, Johan! We`re unworthy, we`re unworthy!*

*shameless Wayne`s World quote

 

[Marconius]

I don't think the game is too war-focused... my main issue is that there's very little else in it, as far as I can tell. Sure, plots and characters are a cool idea in theory, but thus far the only plots I've seen are "Attack X" or "Civil War"... which means pretty much anything you do involves killing. I'd like to see just a bit more on the more peaceful side of things, including a slightly more complex economy, more options in diplomacy, etc.

 

[deoved]

I don't think the game is too war-focused... my main issue is that there's very little else in it, as far as I can tell. Sure, plots and characters are a cool idea in theory, but thus far the only plots I've seen are "Attack X" or "Civil War"... which means pretty much anything you do involves killing. I'd like to see just a bit more on the more peaceful side of things, including a slightly more complex economy, more options in diplomacy, etc.

Well maybe "Magna Mundi The Game"?

 

[The Disaster]

I think the war is done rather well - I like seeing a province change colour the second I capture it rather than hoping for a good result in the peace negotiations. But I am just a little disappointed with the non-war aspects; it seems so odd now to have a total absence of trade in a game like this, and the Castle/Village improvements are totally abitrary. In addition, the lack of any sort of research/technology aspect, while in all probability accurate for the period covered, means that one of my favourite elements of strategy is missing and just like in S2TW we end up with cookie-cutter units.

 

[womble]

...The lack of any sort of research/technology aspect, while in all probability accurate for the period covered, means that one of my favourite elements of strategy is missing and just like in S2TW we end up with cookie-cutter units.

Yes, it is certainly historical. The advent of the arquebus was pretty much the only thing that changed the face of warfare for a good couple of centuries in Nippon. The Guild Houses seem to be about the only way of 'customising' your troops, but if you want anything more than that, this isn't the period/milieu to be expectin' it I'm hoping the troop types in CK2 will be a bit more varied, more even than the current dev diaries suggest they may be thus far.

 

[chrism2012]

But it still feels a bit as if I'm playing some sort of more complicated form of risk.

After playing the demo for a bit I came to the very same conclusion about Sengoku vs. Risk2.

Maybe I'm too accustomed to traditional buildup and deep ingame complexity, with Sengoku I have the feeling to just and immediately wipe out anything in my path... comparing to HoI3, Vic2 and PoN, this is somewhat lacking.

 

[Nefaro]

The War focus wouldn't be such an issue if there was a bell curve to army strengths.

Right now, the larger nation will win. Sure, flat numbers of soldiers is a big contributor but what really pushes it over is the rate at which the biggies can regenerate their levies, so you'll just see another doom stack heading your way if you take too long to defeat the first one, and you'll eventually be overwhelmed by reinforcement. While it may be logical with a big difference in clan size, I've found that it makes a large difference even when the two warring clans are somewhat close in territory ownership.

I'm thinking of lowering the levy recruitment bonuses quite a bit, from buildings and such, and see if slowing everyone down makes wars a bit more slow & painful. Perhaps a bit of a nerf to the steady honor gains from titles & such too.

I'm also hoping that levy costs far outweigh the possible income in huge sized clans if all their levies are mobilized. So that it will quickly end in bankruptcy if they keep them all going for more than a very short period.

 

[Keinwyn]

There needs to be more diplomatic options, and the AI needs to be smarter diplomatically. Otherwise, there is not too much war, no.

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

What I`m missing is war weariness. Or maybe I just didn`t find it yet.

 

[Wampbit]

There is not too much war, but there is too little diplomacy. The total amount of combat is fine in my view, however the AI is too biased towards all out warfare rather than diplomatic consideration. If plotting and quick diplomacy were to be improved I think the game would feel far more complete. The issue isn't too much war, but a lack of much other than war.

 

[Nefaro]

There is not too much war, but there is too little diplomacy. The total amount of combat is fine in my view, however the AI is too biased towards all out warfare rather than diplomatic consideration. If plotting and quick diplomacy were to be improved I think the game would feel far more complete. The issue isn't too much war, but a lack of much other than war.

That's a nice quick summary.

 

[RoboCzar]

If you are finding you have to fight wars too often in this game, you aren't playing it as fully intended.

This game is fully about using war as a last resort. You should be making family alliances/marriages and drawing in vassals to your clan.

 

[bleary]

This game is fully about using war as a last resort. You should be making family alliances/marriages and drawing in vassals to your clan.

I'm also finding that it can be worthwhile to sometimes take less than all the territory you can in a war. When playing as a smaller clan fighting alongside a larger one, getting to a siege first allows you to leverage their larger armies and still take the territory. However, there are advantages to allowing a bigger clan to get slightly bigger if it gains some new neighbors in the process. These are new prospective members of a plot against it. Managing the number of neighbors you have limits your exposure to plots, and allowing your neighbors to make new neighbors increases their exposure.

 

[oddible]

The War focus wouldn't be such an issue if there was a bell curve to army strengths.

Right now, the larger nation will win. Sure, flat numbers of soldiers is a big contributor but what really pushes it over is the rate at which the biggies can regenerate their levies, so you'll just see another doom stack heading your way if you take too long to defeat the first one, and you'll eventually be overwhelmed by reinforcement. While it may be logical with a big difference in clan size, I've found that it makes a large difference even when the two warring clans are somewhat close in territory ownership.

I'm thinking of lowering the levy recruitment bonuses quite a bit, from buildings and such, and see if slowing everyone down makes wars a bit more slow & painful. Perhaps a bit of a nerf to the steady honor gains from titles & such too.

I'm also hoping that levy costs far outweigh the possible income in huge sized clans if all their levies are mobilized. So that it will quickly end in bankruptcy if they keep them all going for more than a very short period.

I thought this in my first game but in my second I really looked for ways to prevent going to war with someone bigger than me - there are actually several and it requires some work. Rather than trying to defeat the big guy in a brawl - something that is near impossible - work the diplomacy & ninja angle and keep yourself out of war with them until you are big enough to handle it. Or, use their wars against them - when they go to war against someone else, take advantage of their lowered honor, their unhappy vassals, and their religious factions to make life very difficult for them - then, when their reinforcements are at a low point, jump on them.

I think there is a lot more going on here than just all out war. Like most Paradox games, it isn't all obvious on the surface.