Is Self-Propelled Artillery Useless?

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Cavalry

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So his cas will shred your SPA. So instead or wasting IC on that you better build more guns and burn their manpower. Your China for heavens sake, as long as you have guns you win. You can trade 1:10 on manpower it does not matter, just make sure you have guns and you win.
Wtf here. I said build the tank instead of line artillery, not build SPA. Medium tank and light tank can be dirt cheap, provide all armor, breakthrough, and some attack need. You can use tank with machine gun as main gun to save cost in 1-6 template. The tank allow longer attack time in a limited combat width.

The SPA is best used with tank, not alone.
 
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GrandVezir

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To be able to train lots of divisions you need to build guns guns guns. Then Artillery and Supportequipment.
Don't neglect the support AA. For China in particular, support AA potentially saves more in losses than it costs to build, while burning your enemies' expensive CAS.
 

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Don't neglect the support AA. For China in particular, support AA potentially saves more in losses than it costs to build, while burning your enemies' expensive CAS.
Yeah, it is probably the most expensive unit in the division though. You can use them in only half of the divisions to save cost. The light SPAA can be even cheaper than line towed AA, so that can be consider to boost total AA.
 
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Terracos

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Wtf here. I said build the tank instead of line artillery, not build SPA. Medium tank and light tank can be dirt cheap, provide all armor, breakthrough, and some attack need. You can use tank with machine gun as main gun to save cost in 1-6 template. The tank allow longer attack time in a limited combat width.

The SPA is best used with tank, not alone.
So just to get this right, instead of artillery you build IW tanks with machine guns?

Sounds like a huge IC sink, how does this even work. The cheapest option costs about half the artillery but that has no stats at all. The moment you put additional MGs to get soft attack to match the artillery you also increase cost so you are on parity. But you have no support artillery then. And you get pierced by almost everything so why bother? You literally lose out on the best support company for no real benefit and you cant even go forward as you have no research capacity to improve the tanks from there.

Ok if you play till 1975 it will work or for fun RP things but efficiency is something different.
 
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Secret Master

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Nothing is more cost efficient than support artillery.

Let's test that, shall we?

We'll test it using China's starting techs (without 1936 ART) and compare support ART to a couple of different things.

Support ART:

1684687660731.png


You get 17.5 SA for a cost of 42. That's 2.4 IC cost per SA. Requires tungsten, which Nat. China doesn't have a lot of, but Guangxi does.

How about INF with Tier 1 kits. (China starts with Tier 0, but even a cursory comparison of stats will show you how much more efficient Tier 1 kits are these days to Tier 0.)

1684687821087.png


100 Tier 1 Infantry Kits cost 50 (I don't know why the division designer thinks it should cost 43.) With an SA of 6, that's 8.33 IC per SA. It only gets worse if you use Tier 0, since Tier 0 kits have half the SA but have a cost of 0.43 per kit.

What about the cheapest LARM I can make with China's starting tech?

1684687989987.png



I gave this tank diesel to improve reliability since speed probably isn't anything we care about right now. Note that non-tracked suspension is not available to Nat. China at game start.

What does this tank look like in line and recon?

1684688398908.png


That's 8 SA and 144 cost for 18 IC per SA. Note that with the pitiful armor rating, Tier 1 infantry kits can pierce this.

As recon:


1684688702484.png



Note that Nat. China does not start with any recon (and no support equipment), but let's give them the benefit of the doubt since we all know they will pick those techs up at some point.

That's 57.6 production cost for 3.2 SA. That's 18 cost per SA.

What about line ART?

1684688986642.png


That's 126 production cost for 27.5 SA. That's 4.5 production cost per SA.

What about support AA?

1684689171172.png


That's 80 cost for 1.8 SA for 44.44 cost per SA. Obviously, not a good choice for mowing down troops, but should pierce any AFVs Japan has in the field under AI control. :)


It certainly seems to me that support ART is a winner in terms of firepower for cost. Yes, you need tungsten. But the other options require other imports like oil or are just significantly worse. Line ART isn't bad in this context, either. It's not nearly as good as support ART, but it beats out low quality tanks and INF. Line ART has the width issue, but I'm guessing that in the context of this discussion, China isn't worried about fine tuning width during the first three years of the war. Just getting enough ART out into the field to have some divisions with a single line ART stacked with support ART might be a challenge.

I know this isn't a big surprise to a lot of players, but sometimes it helps to see it the context of actual units that you would be producing at a particular point in time. And we obviously didn't compare support ART to things like support RART since that's beyond the scope of this particular discussion.

Just for fun, I thought I'd look at LARM using the close support gun. China does not start with this tech and must research 1936 artillery for it.

1684689970985.png


We have to swap to gasoline since the tank is slower than 4 kph with diesel.

In a line battalion, it looks like this:

1684690047302.png


This costs 312 for 25 SA for 12.48 cost per SA. In SPART format, it looks like this:

1684690210619.png


SA is higher thanks to 1936 artillery techs boosting SPART.

That's 260 cost and 31.2 SA for 8.33 cost per SA. That is better than the machinegun light tanks, and it is comparable to an INF battalion with Tier 1 kits. But it doesn't cost tungsten like ART does. I'm not sure this is a good purchase, either, given the low armor values.

Note that these tank costs go up if you swap to heavy tanks for the armor value. But at that point, support ART looks even better in terms of just shooting people.

To sum up:

This is your enemy:

1684690661943.png


This is your enemy when you use support ART:

1684690713674.png


Any questions? ;)
 
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.Raptor.

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I use them in my elite defensive/offensive divisions to ideally supplement and support pure panzer divisions but end up using those divisions to attack on their own anyway.

6 mot (soon to be upgraded to mech) and 2 medium chassis self-propelled artillery battalions.

the way I play as Germany, Industry isn’t an issue but manpower is, therefore I create these Panzergrenadier Divisions to more optimally spread out the manpower and give them a significant punch and a bit of armour.
 

Qwerlancer

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Yes, SPG are useless in Hoi4. I might have other perspective regarding artillery represented in game.

Towed gun and SPG might have same caliber and same firepower, but their deployment speed are not the same. All artillery battalions are always 100% active which is unrealistic and illogical. Imagine shooting a towed-cannon during your troops moving in column. Why SPGs (and TDs) are better than towed-artillery IRL because they can be rapidly deployed instead of waiting slow towed-pieces to setup. Especially in blitz operations tank formations with SPGs could deal with enemy fortifications independently without waiting and missing critical moment. In other cases such as during troop movement towed-artillery are basically defenseless while SPG still remain combat readiness due to its design.

Maybe something like "Artillery readiness/combat phrases" mechanics are needed in battles in order to make SPG useful.

Let's say SPGs have the highest readiness, they enter battle with 80% of its firepower(both SA and HA). After 2 hours the it would increased to its 100%.
Motorized artillery have some readiness, enter battle with 20% stat. Reach 100% firepower after 8 hours.
Towed artillery have little readiness, enter battle with 10% firepower. Reach 100% firepower after 16 hours.

These number are arbitrary but with phrase mechanics SPG would become more preferable if you are focused on offense.
Moreover, Entrenchments/Planning bonus could be also factored into initial firepower representing efforts to setup their fire positions.
 
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Secret Master

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It gives you a range of IC depending on what equipment you allow. Tier 0 is 0.43, hence 43 as you seem to allow it too.

Ah, yes. We did have Tier 0 equipment both in stockpile and enabled. I just had the tech for Tier 1 using cheats on day 1.
 

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Maybe something like "Artillery readiness/combat phrases" mechanics are needed in battles in order to make SPG useful.

Let's say SPGs have the highest readiness, they enter battle with 80% of its firepower(both SA and HA). After 2 hours the it would increased to its 100%.
Motorized artillery have some readiness, enter battle with 20% stat. Reach 100% firepower after 8 hours.
Towed artillery have little readiness, enter battle with 10% firepower. Reach 100% firepower after 16 hours.

These number are arbitrary but with phrase mechanics SPG would become more preferable if you are focused on offensive.
Moreover, Entrenchments/Planning bonus could be also factored into initial firepower representing efforts to setup their fire positions.
Instead of readiness, I would call this concept artillery mobility.
And I would like another related concept introduced into hoi4, counter-battery. Meaning artillery (or CAS) are needed to efficiently counter artillery (countered in this case can either mean taking priority equipment destruction or reduced damage output), and more mobile artillery should be harder to counter via counter-battery. Tie the recon stat into this as well since atm that stat is almost useless.

(Also why couldn't SPGs be used by support companies to begin with, was that design decision ever elaborated on anywhere)
 

Cavalry

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So just to get this right, instead of artillery you build IW tanks with machine guns?
As China Com we can use 1 tank (light or medium)+6 infantry + support arty.

If we do the focus to get the 100 light tank then we get the IW tank tech free too. Try to get the next tank tech for reliabiltiy.
The tank below is only 228 IC per battalion, the line artillery is 126 IC so instead of 7/2 we can use 6 inf-1 tank, less attack but more armor and breakthrough, hardness.
We can save 1 IC (26% IC cost, 26% more tank) using machine gun as main gun , but probably no need.

1684714059385.png



China Com attack troop can be like these: the tank provide +50% more breakthough, armor and hardness for a long battle than defeat enemy Org.

1684714367911.png
 
Last edited:
Apr 18, 2023
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As China Com we can use 1 tank (light or medium)+6 infantry + support arty.

If we do the focus to get the 100 light tank then we get the IW tank tech free too. Try to get the next tank tech for reliabiltiy.
The tank below is only 228 IC per battalion, the line artillery is 126 IC.

View attachment 986354


China Com attack troop can be like these: the tank provide +50% more breakthough, armor and hardness for a long battle than defeat enemy Org.

View attachment 986355
You have way more important focuses to do than the tank one lmao, its a complete waste of time
Also cav recon as china? LOL