@Wiz I'm sure you've read a bunch of the suggestions and concerns raised around westernization and technology on the forum. Will there be any tweaking in 1.14? Should I eagerly await a dev diary for that, is it on the back burner, or should I pack up and go home?
Is Paradox gonna address tech concerns with 1.14?
- Thread starter Afinati
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It might be helpful if you'll describe to which "suggestions and concerns" you mean as each forumite holds his own view on the matter.
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Since PDS hasn't preferred any as far as I recall and I'm just interested to know which tickled their fancy and just generally if tech would get touched upon at all, I think my original post is serviceable.
Fair enough [it seemed though like you were pushing for a certain agenda].
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- Dec 14, 1999
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To clarify.
Its too easy to westernise, and too easy to keep up, but we wont make a new system until we have more fun one that is still balanced.
Its too easy to westernise, and too easy to keep up, but we wont make a new system until we have more fun one that is still balanced.
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@Johan personally I would have just left it at "No" and watched the forum burn in flames.
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Good.
We need a massive tech over-hall. Tweaking in a non-tech focused expansion would just be appeasement towards complainers and not actually make anyone happy (like the couple of minor and pointless westernisation modifications we've already been given that didn't help at all).
We need a massive tech over-hall. Tweaking in a non-tech focused expansion would just be appeasement towards complainers and not actually make anyone happy (like the couple of minor and pointless westernisation modifications we've already been given that didn't help at all).
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- development of new tech system confirmed, hype intensifies.
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At least Johan confirmed that technology system now is far from satisfactory. I have to acknowledge its a very difficult subject to rework and requires tons of investment of time. Just be patient....
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There are two sides to the coin.
Side A: Wants the entire map to be playable. Sees tech groups and westernization basically as a penalty to playing in a different area.
Side B: Wants the map to play more historically-y-ish with Europe being able to colonize and conquer the rest of the world.
I think part of the problem can be summarized with one sentence: It is possible in EU4 to beat France with Bavaria. EU4 is not historical, but attempts to be historical.
Side A: Wants the entire map to be playable. Sees tech groups and westernization basically as a penalty to playing in a different area.
Side B: Wants the map to play more historically-y-ish with Europe being able to colonize and conquer the rest of the world.
I think part of the problem can be summarized with one sentence: It is possible in EU4 to beat France with Bavaria. EU4 is not historical, but attempts to be historical.
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- development of new tech system confirmed, hype intensifies.
I'm sure they're kicking around ideas which is an important part of development so in a sense they will be 'working on it', but not necessarily the same thing as having a project planned or underway.
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@Wiz @Johan
My idea from an earlier thread.
"There is nothing wrong with those outside of Europe keeping up (relatively) well until the 1700's. After all, that's kind of what happened. What needs to happen if we wish to "model" history properly is a drop off around this point when the agricultural revolution in Europe really kicked off and enabled a surplus of manpower combined with advanced banking and investment techniques derived from trading investments/missions on the part of proto-capitalists in the Netherlands and Great Britain that allowed Europe to run away from the rest technologically. And you know what? Most Asian/Islamic World nations actually do start lagging rather significantly in the 18th century in my games so, from my limited point of view, this seems like a good balance. Not perfect, but it works. Because honestly there is crazy amounts of Westernization.
The best way to model this (imo ofc)? Do what I listed above. Have advancements in Banking and Infrastructure be derived from having extensive trading influence, a more advanced form of government to distance from feudal/medieval tax collection methods, relative cultural homogeneity, and a much higher development to province ratio to represent how an expansionist empire like the Ottomans empire would have difficulties with this sort of advancement would then enable them to invest in further internal improvements like a proper Academy of Sciences or "nudge" them slowly to a proper scientific revolution. Anyone who accomplishes this should be able to "modernize" and experience and exponential growth in tech advancement. It just so happens that these things rather favor Western Europeans due to their position to easily influence trade and the HRE and large number of Great Powers in the area ensuring (hopefully) that the province to development ratio stays high. If this is implemented properly then honestly we could do away with tech groups all together, simply giving Europeans the tech advantage to mil that they get during the religious wars should be sufficient to represent their increasing skill at waging warfare. And the religious wars themselves should be expanded to include things like the French Wars of Religion, the expulsion of Puritans from England, and all those other fun things.
In fact the reformation itself should provide a rather substantial tech discount to those that convert due to the proliferation of bibles and how everyone in Northern and Central Germany all of a sudden started reading due to the importance of the personal interpretation of the Bible and the spread of the printing press (another possible way to give Westerners a tech reduction without making "groups"). The Counter Reformation should provide a MATCHING tech discount as it was an intellectual refutation of the arguments of the Reformation while still making some concessions and led to the development of perhaps the most venerable collection of intellectuals formed by any institution ever under the Jesuits. Seriously, these guys were basically intellectual missionaries that got people to convert by proving how smart they are.
TLDR Get rid of tech groups and have dynamic events and mechanics instituted that allow anyone to modernize but still favor Europeans."
Questions/further suggestions:
1)What do you think?
2)Maybe have a continuously changing "Innovativeness" counter/bar that when it reaches 100 have a scientific revolution start? And this revolution increases tech rate exponentially?
3)Tie the Dutch and English Governments and/or advanced government forms to this counter/tech discount?
4)Have a country with the scientific revolution for 50-75+ years trigger an industrial revolution giving some really nifty bonuses but several unique disasters?
My idea from an earlier thread.
"There is nothing wrong with those outside of Europe keeping up (relatively) well until the 1700's. After all, that's kind of what happened. What needs to happen if we wish to "model" history properly is a drop off around this point when the agricultural revolution in Europe really kicked off and enabled a surplus of manpower combined with advanced banking and investment techniques derived from trading investments/missions on the part of proto-capitalists in the Netherlands and Great Britain that allowed Europe to run away from the rest technologically. And you know what? Most Asian/Islamic World nations actually do start lagging rather significantly in the 18th century in my games so, from my limited point of view, this seems like a good balance. Not perfect, but it works. Because honestly there is crazy amounts of Westernization.
The best way to model this (imo ofc)? Do what I listed above. Have advancements in Banking and Infrastructure be derived from having extensive trading influence, a more advanced form of government to distance from feudal/medieval tax collection methods, relative cultural homogeneity, and a much higher development to province ratio to represent how an expansionist empire like the Ottomans empire would have difficulties with this sort of advancement would then enable them to invest in further internal improvements like a proper Academy of Sciences or "nudge" them slowly to a proper scientific revolution. Anyone who accomplishes this should be able to "modernize" and experience and exponential growth in tech advancement. It just so happens that these things rather favor Western Europeans due to their position to easily influence trade and the HRE and large number of Great Powers in the area ensuring (hopefully) that the province to development ratio stays high. If this is implemented properly then honestly we could do away with tech groups all together, simply giving Europeans the tech advantage to mil that they get during the religious wars should be sufficient to represent their increasing skill at waging warfare. And the religious wars themselves should be expanded to include things like the French Wars of Religion, the expulsion of Puritans from England, and all those other fun things.
In fact the reformation itself should provide a rather substantial tech discount to those that convert due to the proliferation of bibles and how everyone in Northern and Central Germany all of a sudden started reading due to the importance of the personal interpretation of the Bible and the spread of the printing press (another possible way to give Westerners a tech reduction without making "groups"). The Counter Reformation should provide a MATCHING tech discount as it was an intellectual refutation of the arguments of the Reformation while still making some concessions and led to the development of perhaps the most venerable collection of intellectuals formed by any institution ever under the Jesuits. Seriously, these guys were basically intellectual missionaries that got people to convert by proving how smart they are.
TLDR Get rid of tech groups and have dynamic events and mechanics instituted that allow anyone to modernize but still favor Europeans."
Questions/further suggestions:
1)What do you think?
2)Maybe have a continuously changing "Innovativeness" counter/bar that when it reaches 100 have a scientific revolution start? And this revolution increases tech rate exponentially?
3)Tie the Dutch and English Governments and/or advanced government forms to this counter/tech discount?
4)Have a country with the scientific revolution for 50-75+ years trigger an industrial revolution giving some really nifty bonuses but several unique disasters?
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- thats why i used green grinning smile. Forum people tend to
overestimate all Pdx statements.
I still think Western tech countries are too powerful. There is no way how you will not hit some 999s which won't go away on their own some time into the game. Typical western tech problem: "Damm it I need to get to the next idea group so I can actually spend some points!" I just had a Western tech game where I randomly started to culture-convert due to having too many points. Okay, I know that this technically isn't true anymore with the introduction of development. But the original point still stands. They are not too weak in comparison to the rest of the world, certainly not.
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I don't entirely agree with this. Well I can agree that you can keep up with western nations with a poor tech group and that may not be the point of tech groups. But just to develop a technology a poor tech group lose hundreds of monarch points for more or less nothing. I did a calculation and if you want to stay up in tech each 25% increase are about equivalent to -1 monarch point per month so Indian tech nations that want to stay up in tech basically have -2 monarch points per month compared to western nations.
Westernization may be easy in the way that you probably will not fail it or get much internal problem but to westernize cost about as much if not more then it would take to core whole starting England.
Basically what happens is that rest of the world countries probably spend every single monarch points on tech because the ai love to tech. Basically poor tech group are monarch point black holes who basically prevent these countries from doing anything but developing techs. The true problem is that low tech groups have access to the technology but they have to pay so much for it that they basically turn into empty shells. Westernization is easy but so expansive for something that western countries get for free.
Basically what tech groups does is to make countries stagnant because ironically they invest every resource they got into technology and thus unable to do anything else.
The technology system would pretty much need a whole expansion dedicated just to it.
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Thanks for the response, would definitely prefer a fleshed out tech/westernisation overhaul (and maybe idea groups as well) than a quick'n'dirty fix. Best of luck brainstorming
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