Is North Chinese Trade Company Charter working as design?

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addvaluejack

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I just noticed that North Chinese Charter is the only charter that you can not direct its trade value to Europa by sea. And it seems conflicts with the design of trade company.

Shouldn't Nippon node be a better choice for trade company?
 

misiceman

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Nippon doesn't really have a "historical" basis for being a trade company though. Japan and Korea controlling that quite well in the time frame. To be fair quite beyond the time frame as well.

The thing about the North Chinese Charter (actually most of the Chinese charters) is it was almost firmly in control of non Europeans, unlike the ports in the south opened up to the Portuguese where they could establish themselves. In fact no "Major" invasion of china happened on that scale in the time period outside of the Manchu invasion. It took till the second world war for that to happen. While the Opium wars happened we aren't talking a protracted land grab by anyone as it was mainly navel engagements (good old gunboat diplomacy). Especially not something like happened in India.
 

addvaluejack

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Nippon doesn't really have a "historical" basis for being a trade company though. Japan and Korea controlling that quite well in the time frame. To be fair quite beyond the time frame as well.

The thing about the North Chinese Charter (actually most of the Chinese charters) is it was almost firmly in control of non Europeans, unlike the ports in the south opened up to the Portuguese where they could establish themselves. In fact no "Major" invasion of china happened on that scale in the time period outside of the Manchu invasion. It took till the second world war for that to happen. While the Opium wars happened we aren't talking a protracted land grab by anyone as it was mainly navel engagements (good old gunboat diplomacy). Especially not something like happened in India.
In my opinion, Japan have a stronger "historical" basis as a trade company than China. Because Europeans did have stronger impact on Japan than on China during the game's time period. European style firearms are popular in Japan. There were much more Catholic missionaries in Japan than in China, and some daimyos openly converted to Christian.
 

misiceman

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Except a lot of the access to Japan was still heavily limited to specific areas and by specific nations during the game period. Heck the Sengoku Jidai didn't even end till 1609. For a time the Portuguese had a "stranglehold" on Japan (to be fair china also) because they refused to tell anyone from Europe how to get there. Also due to the fractured nature of japan they were able to have access to many different ports with Daimyo who were not so isolationist. This allowed Catholic missionaries in (if memory serves a large contingent of Jesuits and others).

After this they became heavily isolationist and started clamping down hard on foreign influences (most of Catholicism in places of power was removed) and only by after game end date did they really open up. This was due to the Americans, with an fleet of modern ships saying open up or else (look up the Perry expedition - specifically July 8th 1853).

We need @Grand Historian here for some more details as my Japanese history is not up to muster.
 

makaramus

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Except a lot of the access to Japan was still heavily limited to specific areas and by specific nations during the game period. Heck the Sengoku Jidai didn't even end till 1609. For a time the Portuguese had a "stranglehold" on Japan (to be fair china also) because they refused to tell anyone from Europe how to get there. Also due to the fractured nature of japan they were able to have access to many different ports with Daimyo who were not so isolationist. This allowed Catholic missionaries in (if memory serves a large contingent of Jesuits and others).

After this they became heavily isolationist and started clamping down hard on foreign influences (most of Catholicism in places of power was removed) and only by after game end date did they really open up. This was due to the Americans, with an fleet of modern ships saying open up or else (look up the Perry expedition - specifically July 8th 1853).

We need @Grand Historian here for some more details as my Japanese history is not up to muster.
yea but lets say they were conquered?
 

Black Turtle

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The idea of dominating "trading companies" in East Asia as they work in the game is almost completely anachronistic to the game's timeline until the very end. Like the last decade of the game.
 

misiceman

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India is a mess also. I am almost of the opinion that the coast should be the only TC region available in India, SE Asia and China. Not only would it be a justifiable nerf to some of the richest "free" low autonomy areas of the game but it might really allow a trade based game to focus more heavily on node dominance instead of just grabbing SUPER high dev land in India at 50% the core cost.

yea but lets say they were conquered?

I would keep them as it is now and have to full core it. TC just doesnt make sense for that area, Japan and Korea included.
 

Grand Historian

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Japan's a difficult spot; it was unknown to Europe at the time of the Treaty of Tacos, and while it did technically fall under the Portuguese sphere, both Spain and Portuguese Merchants competed for trade there (and, later, the Spanish Franciscans would quarrel with the predominantly-Portuguese Jesuits) - perhaps only legally possible given the Iberian Union. Japan being limited during the Sengoku Jidai is a bit of a misconception; it was only limited to the extent that the regional Daimyo turned away foreign missionaries; wherever the Jesuits were permitted, Portuguese merchants would usually follow. This was really only possible given the lack of authority that Kyoto had over the provinces; once the Tokugawa had unified Japan and crushed the remnants of the Western Army at Osaka in 1615, they were able to effectively impose their bans on Christianity, which ultimately culminated in the Shimabara Revolt in 1632 (which was then used as a convenient excuse to close the country).

The actual trade the Japanese engaged the Portuguese and Spanish in was by and large much more equitable than the Trade Companies in India, Indonesia and southern China, likely because they almost exclusively traded with the Daimyo that actually welcomed and protected them - the only things really resembling a foreign factory in Japan were William Adam's enterprise (granted, by that time he had settled down in Japan and been granted a title and a permit from the Shogunate, so it doesn't really count), and Dejima off the coast of Nagasaki where the Dutch resided - the latter only after the Tokugawa isolated Japan. There were, however, a number of Japanese enterprises and clans that, if allowed to have grown, would have likely turned into trading companies of their own or at least assumed the responsibilities of them; Red Seal Ships being the most prominent example (the Konishi and Date are both often cited as what-ifs in Japanese sources).

Nagasaki is a bit of an outlier in this period, given it was under Jesuit administration for a few years; administration of the small fishing port was given to the Jesuits by Suimtada Omura to ensure that the Catholics in Hizen - then being persecuted by Takanobu Ryuzoji - would have a safe haven. Sumitada retained the right to collect dues, but otherwise the Jesuits turned it into a heavily-fortified, cosmopolitan trading port that could compete with Hakata and Sakai practically overnight (owing in large part to the influx of Christian refugees, as Sumitada surrendered to Takanobu immediately after granting the Jesuits their port). However, it wasn't a foreign colony in any conventional sense; it was administered directly by the order locally, the native municipal council maintained authority, and the Jesuits later surrender the port to Hideyoshi Toyotomi without a fight (though the then-Superior Gaspar Coelho planned to resist the seizure of Nagasaki, but he was quickly reprimanded by the other missions and died naturally a few weeks before Valignano could return to Japan and strip him of his position). In this sense, Nagasaki better resembled the 'Free' merchant cities that sprung up across Japan during the Sengoku, like Sakai and Hakata, with the added caveat of a foreign, ecclesiocratic administration.

Originally the trade was primarily firearms on the Portuguese's part, but it quickly turned to saltpeter as the Japanese replicated and improved upon the firearms they had at an unprecedented rate, though they were always want for quality saltpeter. Other tradegoods included soap, glassworks, machinery (such as clocks), books, western armor, warhorses, and a number of Portuguese foods (apparently candies were particularly popular; Luis Frois even gained his first audience with Nobunaga Oda by presenting him with a flask of konpeito). On the Japanese's side, it was primarily lacquerware, swords, silk, Japanese silver, and occasionally tea paraphernalia and Japanese armor.

Dunno where you got the idea that the Portuguese Merchants didn't tell anyone else how to get to Japan: Spanish Franciscans and Florentine and Geonese Merchants all had notable presences there, it was an Englishman who more or less destroyed any prospects of a continued western presence in Japan, and the Dutch were the only westerners allowed to trade after Sakoku was imposed. That Francis Xavier first heard of Japan owing to an encounter with a Japanese exile in Malacca only four years after the Portuguese were moored on Tanegashima and the Jesuit Mission saw it's greatest reach under the leadership of the Neapolitan Alessandro Valignano (who organized a formal embassy to Europe from the Otomo Clan of Kyushu) should make it evident that it's location wasn't exactly a state secret (unlike, say, the recipe for Hot Chocolate).

But yeah; historically, there's no basis, but gameplay needs to come first.
 

misiceman

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Wow BIG TY @Grand Historian . Always a pleasure to read your walls of awesome text and also why I tagged you as i wasn't sure anymore. Better to ask someone that knows then spout more ignorance out of my mou..... how do you spout thing with a keyboard.....
 

Grand Historian

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Wow BIG TY @Grand Historian . Always a pleasure to read your walls of awesome text and also why I tagged you as i wasn't sure anymore. Better to ask someone that knows then spout more ignorance out of my mou..... how do you spout thing with a keyboard.....

Happy to be of assistance! Thank you for alerting me of this thread.
 

TheMeInTeam

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From a gameplay perspective, trade companies are only possible after you beat down or threaten provinces off the target nation. In that sense, the distinction of what is "trade company land" and what isn't is arbitrary.

There's no consistent rationale that dictates a game system like "France can into China. All of it." then turns around says "nope, not trade company land". Notably, this makes the restriction for Asian nations like India on Malacca/China pretty arbitrary too...and calls into question why a completely dominant, unified India conquering England can't make trade companies there.

Arguments against those things from a historical perspective fall flat; if you're telling me you know what would have happened if Malwa unified India for 150 years then took London, you're wrong. Nobody knows that. Doing that is well within game rules though, so what's with the trade company restrictions? They would make the most sense along the major waterways/trade paths, since these paths are more geographic in nature...though even now you can steal Malacca --> India --> Samarkand --> Russia with a majority over-land route with some pretty silly implications.