is "No Tribute" a lost war?

[mllfun]

So I am China, diff: EASIEST, around 1856~1857, warring UK due to Arrow incident (French not involved though) .
I took HK(ceded to UK in opium war) which resulted in me 1% in war score against UK. The British was marching towards Dali from India, but stopped after I garrisoned 70 irr + some REGinf there.
As I was very bored, I negotiated peace and chose no tribute (PRESTIGE GAIN: 0)... and they accepted, :wacko: .

I heard that I have to lose in this war to get the civilized event for China, so
1. is "No Tribute" (PRESTIGE GAIN: 0) a lost war?
2. I loaded a save and tried to Offer Tribute to them, 1st Kashgar, then Kalihar, but they just denied it. Then I chose No Tribute again, and they accept it... What's wrong? Why do they hate those provinces so much?
3. Is this the evil plot of the british AI to ruin my civilizing process? :wacko:

 

[Memnon]

I think it might be counted as a tie. I'm not sure if that exists, though. The only reason I'm suspicious is that, when I used to play as Prussia, I could never get Austria to giove up any provinces in the Austro-Prussian War, so I always made a white peace with them, though I've never suffered the "Fall of Prussia" event, I've also never had the Zollverein form. So, as far as civiliziong goes, I think you might have to do it yourself. Or maybe I'm wrong. We'll find out soon enough.

 

[Darkrenown]

Whoever has positive WS when the war ends is considered the winner if you make white peace.

I wonder if you'd still be considered the winner is you had a positive WS, but gave up a ton of land?

 

[unmerged(25053)]

Giving up something means 'lost the war'. Whichever country has 'paid tribute' is the country that lost.

Note: If you make Austria pay war reparations (instead of taking land that will force Austria to DOW you even though relations are 200) it will count as an Austrian defeat. (Heck, do the same to Bavaria and then the SGF pays, too ... good way to make 10k+ per end of month for 3 years.)

 

[Darkrenown]

I know normally the one giving up something has lost, but normally the one with negative WS is the one giving up stuff. Since in the case of white peace WS decides who won, I wondered if WS would override going up land or vice-versa. Have you tested that giving something up = losing or are you just saying it because it makes sense, something Vic does not always do?

 

[Kedryn]

I have seen China overrun 3 Siberian provinces whilst at war with the Russians, settle for a white peace and then the event that secedes the Amur watershed kicks in (which is triggered by losing a war vs. the Russians). Perhaps a white peace means *both* sides lost to the other?

 

[Memnon]

I have seen China overrun 3 Siberian provinces whilst at war with the Russians, settle for a white peace and then the event that secedes the Amur watershed kicks in (which is triggered by losing a war vs. the Russians). Perhaps a white peace means *both* sides lost to the other?

And this would both explain and not explain why I've never seen the zollverein form.

 

[Lamprey]

Way I understand this is, you get an amount of prestige equal to your WS minus the value of any provinces you take in the war when signing a peace treaty. This is why, prestige-wise, it's best to humiliate/get reparations from countries. This would also mean, in theory at least, that a white peace between a country with +25WS and the one with -25WS would count as a victory for the former, with a 25 prestige gain.

Maybe the trick is to not ask for the white peace right away, but first click "demand tribute" and choose white peace from there?

 

[Darkrenown]

White peace counts as a win for the side with higher WS, that's not in doubt. What I am wondering is, will it count as a win or a loss if you have the higher WS, BUT you give up land anyway.

 

[mllfun]

.....
so is there any way to check the flag of lost arrow war by the console?

 

[Memnon]

.....
so is there any way to check the flag of lost arrow war by the console?

AFAIK, not in the console, but it's in the save file of the game, near the top, right after the list of alliances. Here's an excerpt from my MP game:

flags = {
flg_1850_compromise_1 = 1
flg_1850_compromise_2 = 0
flg_1850_compromise_3 = 0
flg_2nd_Oriental = 0
flg_ANNa = 1
flg_ANNb = 0
flg_annexing_texas = 1
flg_Arrow_War_Lost = 1
flg_Austria_contests = 1
flg_Austrian_vengeance = 1
flg_Cixi_Rise = 1
flg_CSA_cracking = 1
flg_CSA_guerilla = 0
flg_DAN_SWE_1 = 0
flg_DAN_SWE_2 = 0
flg_euro_intervention = 1
flg_French_Arrow = 0
flg_Huangpu_Refused = 0
flg_JapanDutch = 0
flg_kansas_nebraska_1 = 0
flg_kansas_nebraska_2 = 0
flg_kansas_nebraska_3 = 0
flg_Korea_Open = 1

It ought to be in there somehwhere.

 

[mllfun]

.....
so is there any way to check the flag of lost arrow war by the console?

ohoh, I can see the flag in the save file
Is it feasible that I just change the 0 to 1?

 

[Memnon]

ohoh, I can see the flag in the save file
Is it feasible that I just change the 0 to 1?

Well, it seems that each potential event gets either a 0 or a 1, so I don't see why you couldn't just change the number, as long as you changed the other(s) as well.

 

[mllfun]

oh I haven't edited the save (yet)

I looked into the save for china, and there is a
defeated = { ENG }
what is it? defeated by UK? or defeated UK?

=======
Okay, so I loaded the save before peace, and this time offer the island south of mainland China, west of Hong Kong to the British, they accepted it. And immediately after the peace the treaty of Beijing triggered.
Therefore, I conclude that
won_war = { country = ENG country = CHI } is not true for No Tribute, but true for Offer Tribute even I have a positive WS

 

[Darkrenown]

"defeated = { ENG }" means you have beaten the UK.