Is Ming stronger with or without the Mandate of Heaven DLC?

[Martynios]

Regarding tech, income, army etc. Just wondering.

 

[SaucyBaron]

Stronger in tech with, but blob harder without.

Plus the DLC is needed for them to be able to face the crippling penalties of low mandate

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

in my experience, since the dlc came out (and i don't own it) i feel like ming collapses less often than it did before. before it almost felt like 90% chance it would happen, now it seems 40% or so. because i don't have the mandate dlc i can't say for how ming is now, but you definitely can't exploit their mandate, so they can neither become super weak as can be done with the dlc, but also cannot get strengthened via tributes and mandate reforms.

 

[gia257]

without they still collapse, with I hear they dont

 

[Bouchart]

I don't have Mandate of Heaven and in my experience Ming is extremely stable and often one of the top Great Powers.

 

[peenerz]

Makes me wonder if a Ming WC without Mandate of Heaven is easy

 

[gia257]

... ming starts with the wc done