is livestock useless in every situation yes or no?

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Tech Noir Synth

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You seem to forget that they take up 0.25 housing. I can fill a planet with 60 pops and only use 15 housing and produce 858 food, how much food can 15 farmers produce?
Housing? Housing is a non issue in 3.0 unless you have pops on Habitats. The goal is always go get to around 25 pops so you get your 1.50 pop growth bonus from the growth curve. And then you build housing districts because it increases planet capacity and adds building slots. Once your growth starts to go lower than 1.50 bonus, you let the pops resettle by forcing unemployment. Obviously you want to keep the 1.50 pop growth bonus for as long as possible so you never want to completely fill up a planet with pops if possible.

You also have forgotten the jobs freed up by having 60 pops as livestock

"Freed up?" You mean I am using 60 livestock pops when I could be using 40 farmer pops for the same output and employ the remaining 20 pops elsewhere. Explain to us, how are you benfitting from a worse job output? You do not.

Sounds like you are completely ignoring the fact that Livestock job has terrible output compared to a normal farmer job.
 
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Tsavong

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Livestock pops count as pops and so increase the time pops need to grow in the current system. They are bad because they directly reduce the amount of other pops you get in a certain timeframe. Does of course not apply when you deactivate that in the galaxy starting screen

I would like it if livestock pops value for that growth curve gets reduced or even removed.( but removed might be to strong) For example so that when you have 50 pops and 50 livestock pops , they grow like when you only have 75 pops.
 
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Scyobi_Empire

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"Freed up?" You mean I am using 60 livestock pops when I could be using 40 farmer pops for the same output and employ the remaining 20 pops elsewhere. Explain to us, how are you benfitting from a worse job output? You do not.

Sounds like you are completely ignoring the fact that Livestock job has terrible output compared to a normal farmer job.
You always need more tech or alloys when you can buy food if 838 per 60 pops taking up 15 housing isn't enough. More housing = more pop growth.

Don't tell me you produce 3000 food per month while selling 6000, food is worthless to sell.
 
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DeanTheDull

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Livestock pops count as pops and so increase the time pops need to grow in the current system.
Livestock also count as 1/4th the capacity usage of other pops, which increases the rate of growth in the current system. For a significant part of the early/early-mid game when most pop growth is organic rather than through conquest, this is significantly more important when setting up pop-growth worlds.

They are bad because they directly reduce the amount of other pops you get in a certain timeframe.
This is not true for the primary users of live-stock, hive-minds.

For most hive-minds, live stock simply flat do not grow, and are key to getting your planets to maximum growth pop/capacity rates to increase growth. Pops that are captured are purely additive, not competing for growth slots, while your drone growth is affected only in so much as the pops affect the 'sweet spot' for maximum growth and the empire penalty. The only way for livestock to meaningfully effect your empire's natural growth is for expansion to a degree where you've already effectively won the game, and have the economic/industrial capacity to support the science to Bio Ascend and make them into normal drones.
 
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This is not true for the primary users of live-stock, hive-minds.

For most hive-minds, live stock simply flat do not grow, and are key to getting your planets to maximum growth pop/capacity rates to increase growth. Pops that are captured are purely additive, not competing for growth slots, while your drone growth is affected only in so much as the pops affect the 'sweet spot' for maximum growth and the empire penalty. The only way for livestock to meaningfully effect your empire's natural growth is for expansion to a degree where you've already effectively won the game, and have the economic/industrial capacity to support the science to Bio Ascend and make them into normal drones.
you misunderstood what they mean. they do not mean that the livestock grow instead of your main species either by natural growth or in clone vats. they mean that the livestock push you closer to the pop growth limit and therefore increase the cost of every pop going forward. livestock or not, a pop is a pop in terms of the empire wide growth limit.
 
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DeanTheDull

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you misunderstood what they mean. they do not mean that the livestock grow instead of your main species either by natural growth or in clone vats. they mean that the livestock push you closer to the pop growth limit and therefore increase the cost of every pop going forward. livestock or not, a pop is a pop in terms of the empire wide growth limit.

No, I got that, it's just a bad objection. The empire growth curve is nowhere near so steep that you'd be better not capturing the livestock-pops, and there is no meaningful opportunity cost. You are always better with the pops than without, especially when you're the primary type of empire that actually uses them, ie Gestalts.

There's no point in the game where capturing livestock isn't a net positive in capturing them. In the early game, livestock free up your limited drone pops who would be farming for pop-upkeep to do something else. In mid-game, livestock work towards your clone vat buildings as you go towards bio-ascension. In the late-game, once ascended you can change them into drones, unless you're a machine-gestalt who just uses them as a drop in the energy mountain requirement. But they're always a net plus.


And that's the crux, because the objection of 'livestock is a bad job' is misses the fact that gestalts are limited in their ability to use pops by design, not accident, for the same reasons of balance that genocidals are. The alternative to 'lives stock jobs' for a gestalt on the fundamental design concept level isn't 'ok, they can be used as any menial laborer', it's either 'why do you think they have a role in the hive at all?' or 'ok, how far do you want to nerf it?'


Gestalts by design and balance get considerable early game pop-economy advantage (growth + assembly for Hives, 100% habitability robot assembly for machines) early-game war-making advantage (no consumer goods and double the early alloy productio), and early expansion/claim advantages (increased base influence). It is relatively trivial for Gestalts- even the maligned Necro-hive not running a food deficit catalytic economy- to get overwhelming alloy economies by year 30 to swarm their neighbors with corvettes. They aren't necessarily the best for blitzing, but they are more than strong enough to start conquering in the Corvette age rather than waiting for Cruisers.

The trade-off for this extremely powerful early-game war potential, just like other examples with better-than-fanatic-militarist early war bonuses, is limited ability to make direct use of pops that are captured. It is, at a balance level, the same balance consideration as genocidals. Thematically genocidals kill pops because that's what they do, but on the mechanical level genocidals kill pops because if they didn't they'd be ridiculous OP snowballers.

Because Gestalts can trivially double the alloy production of the vast majority of empires in the game, the fundamental balance philosophy for how they can make use of pops is never going to be 'ok, we'll make your early conquest advantage more rewarding by letting you do as you please with these pops.' It has always, and will only, limit what you can do with those pops.


Livestock are not interchangable pops who would be another drone if this job didn't exist. Livestock are what you get instead of purging, which is the typical conceit for most playstyles with this much early war potential.
 
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makapse

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The only reason I have got with livestocks is their slowing down pop growth via empire-wide pop amount. If planet capacity is based upon housing, then the empire wide slowdown should also use housing used to increase the cost of the next pop. I am ok with them providing less food than a drone from base and from tech, but they should not slow down my main species growth.
 
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DeanTheDull

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The only reason I have got with livestocks is their slowing down pop growth via empire-wide pop amount. If planet capacity is based upon housing, then the empire wide slowdown should also use housing used to increase the cost of the next pop. I am ok with them providing less food than a drone from base and from tech, but they should not slow down my main species growth.

Why not? Other than a generalized objection to the empire growth limit mechanic, which isn't a livestock issue.

Livestock pops are an asset, and can- well within the first century- be turned into drones once you get bio-ascension. An ascension that will likely happen far earlier than other empires due to Gestalt's tying of their admin-jobs (synapse drones) to unity production. Said Synapse jobs also costing food to upkeep, which is covered by...

If you are capturing livestock before bio-ascension, they are directly supporting the primary resource and indirectly supporting the secondary resource you need to accelerate your early/mid-game growth potential and make them, well, not-livestock. Food covers your pop assembly and cloning labs, which increases growth far beyond the empire growth slowdown, while freeing up drones from farming to do other things, ie exactly what you'd use additional drones for. Whereas the admin cap needed to support the livestock in turn drives the unity that will achieve Bio-Ascension sooner, with said Synpase drones upkeep including the very food that the livestock are paying for. IE, your livestock are allowing you to elevate the strata of your drones to a more productive function that will- within the first century- let you turn any livestock into a drone.
 
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Tech Noir Synth

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More housing = more pop growth.

Nope. Thats not how it works. Maximum bonus growth from the growth curve is capped at 1.50. Housing does affect it, but only up until this cap. More housing won't do anything. Please do not post false information.
 
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DeanTheDull

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If housing affects pop growth up to the max point, then it's not false information, just limited in how long it remains applicable. It's no more false than saying you need more pops for more growth- this, too, is true up to the pop limit. The fact that it gets you to that point is valid, and relevant in the case of this discussion.
 
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Mohreb

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I think the response depends on many factors. Like said before, if you activate the decrease of growth based on pops, they can hinder you. If you play without that option they are a net gain. You don't even need to suffer the stability malus if you put them on "martial law" worlds designed for livestock, and you can (after a while of raiding) replace all your farmer pops.(or even miners if you can find enough lithoid pops)
But if you use the option of limited growth depending on your empire population, you might end up by having a too big malus for it to be worth it.
So OP should precis the options used to get a more accurate answer.
 

makapse

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lithiod lifestocks dont work. The eat the same amount of feed as a regular one does, but provides much less output in return. I highly doubt even taking enough pops to occupy equal housing as a regular pop mining, you will get more minerals
 
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