Is it worth it to build an Italian Navy?

[tommylotto]

I totally agree with you tommy the levels are not correct in comparison, but its not my opinion, its obvious deduction by gameplay screen.
look here;

Its clear the Caio Duilio Class its a level II BB ... than the Littorio Class is a lvl III. So also if i agree with you, paradox decided differently.
Than the littorio sure will not in queue at game start as lvl III BB, and i have serious doubts also Caio Duilio its in queue ready for 1937.
Also if historically Caio Duilio class was a refit of old BBs paradox put it in the game as a new lvl of BB (lvl II).
In conclusion as Johan sayd, Italy have only 2 BBs at start and its all, no queue.... all the others require research and a new build.

The only thing crazier than saying the Caio Duilio (even after the rebuild) is a Bismarck equivalent is putting the P.26/40 in the same slot as the Tiger I. Italy is going to have to be totally redone....

 

[Centerbe]

The only thing crazier than saying the Caio Duilio (even after the rebuild) is a Bismarck equivalent is putting the P.26/40 in the same slot as the Tiger I. Italy is going to have to be totally redone....

I agree with you the BB comparison is wrong , but i dont agree the mistake is in italian tech tree.

The mistake origin in the german BB tech tree not in Italian one. They didnt create a WW1 BB model for germany, as it is for italy.
Italian BB1 are 1910 ship model than also German must have this tech as lvl I. Scharnhorst class its a 1935 tech design..
Cause this situation all german BBs models in the game are shifted of 1 generation. Bismarck should be a BB of lvl III and not II.

Unfortunately the WW1 German BBs was sunked, but was not a valid reason for not create a tech with this ship in the game.
Create a tech WW1 BB for germany whitout any existant ships of this class in the game start.

In conclusion i think its more realistic redone german BB ship tech adding one BB class before Scharnhorst class.
For example König class or Bayern class can take this place for Germany tech tree as lvl I BB......than shift Scharnhorst to LVL 2 and Bismark to lvl III.

 

[tommylotto]

I agree it would be better to have two pre-game tech levels for BB's. However, I imagine that the different pre-game BB's should be able to be differentiated using the variant system. The Italian rebuilds could be level I BB's with increased speed, the British QE class could be a level I BB improved in everything but speed to the point it is the equivalent in battle of a level II, etc.

What I think is important is that the nations' names assigned to the tech levels should strive to be relatively equivalent (in real life) to the names assigned to the same tech level for other countries. We could argue all day over which ship (Bismarck or Littorio) is better, but they were definitely comparable to each other and should be of the same tech level. Then their relative pluses and minuses can be explained by the variant system. But for game purposes, Bismarck = Littorio, not Caio Duilio = Bismarck. It is the same with tanks. As the game is now, if Italy supplies its armored divisions with P.26/40's (a 26 ton medium tank with a modest 75mm gun) those divisions will be clearly superior to divisions armed with Shermans, PzIV's and T-34's, because the P.26/40 in the game is really a Tiger tank. That kills immersion. P.26/40 = Sherman, not P.26/40 = Tiger.

 

[Centerbe]

I would not enlarge this discussion to everythings, some simplifications are necessary for the development of the game. If a country did not develop in history a technology equal to other nations how to represent? Also in cosideration the fact of a country didnt historically this dont mean could not do it, but was maybe only a strategic decision.
Players must be free to change history and change such decisions as well investing resources and technology in it.

The previous about BBs was an example is possible to correct historically and would not change gameplay balance.
Others situation i dont know if would be possible and would be good thing for the gameplay.
Aniway i take note for a possible mod.

 

[Denkt]

With the model system you can rename your ship classes.

This picture show that you will start with ships in production (see the game date).

 

[Centerbe]

With the model system you can rename your ship classes.

This picture show that you will start with ships in production (see the game date).

its a nice news the building queue @Denkt, never seen before. Thank you

 

[Denkt]

The picture is from the last weeks DD: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-11th-of-december-2015.896886/

 

[Centerbe]

The picture is from the last weeks DD:

aniway we have no certainties if this queue was done during the game paused startup, notice the date is not flashes in background.

This mean the game was not paused and could be not the game start.
In all gameplay video for now i never seen a production queue just planned at startup.

Look as game appear at startup... the date have stripes on background

this mean in the dd screeshot the game was just started
and queue we see its done in that time

this is the UK startup on World War Wednesday part 1 video that confirm there arent production queue.....

 

[Paladino]

aniway we have no certainties if this queue was done during the game paused startup, notice the date is not flashes in background.

This mean the game was not paused and could be not the game start.
In all gameplay video for now i never seen a production queue just planned at startup.

Look as game appear at startup... the date have stripes on background

this mean in the dd screeshot the game was just started
and queue we see its done in that time

Daaang look at the work they did in just 12 hours, 5 ships and a sub roughly 80% finished.

 

[Centerbe]

Daaang look at the work they did in just 12 hours, 5 ships and a sub roughly 80% finished.

well japan have ships 80% finished, UK and GER not....
japanese when they want are really fast workers

 

[Sir Garnet]

Few human players could be as ineffective as Il Duce. One mid-war German evaluation of Italian war production cited in
"Mussolini's Italy : life under the dictatorship, 1915-1945" (R.J.B. Bosworth 2006) was that it was only operating at about 25% of possible efficiency. Considering Mussolini's "monocratic" and I think often impulsive patronage-based approach to dictatorship, a great deal of that slack and waste could have been taken out through good government and professional industrial management. It would have taken strong leadership to bend cultural predilections to the service of wartime needs. So an Italy with unrealized potential should be the default.

 

[Centerbe]

Few human players could be as ineffective as Il Duce. One mid-war German evaluation of Italian war production cited in
"Mussolini's Italy : life under the dictatorship, 1915-1945" (R.J.B. Bosworth 2006) was that it was only operating at about 25% of possible efficiency. Considering Mussolini's "monocratic" and I think often impulsive patronage-based approach to dictatorship, a great deal of that slack and waste could have been taken out through good government and professional industrial management. It would have taken strong leadership to bend cultural predilections to the service of wartime needs. So an Italy with unrealized potential should be the default.

i agree, its a realistic analisys....few men in the world could be so ineffective

 

[Amur_Tiger]

I agree with you the BB comparison is wrong , but i dont agree the mistake is in italian tech tree.

The mistake origin in the german BB tech tree not in Italian one. They didnt create a WW1 BB model for germany, as it is for italy.
Italian BB1 are 1910 ship model than also German must have this tech as lvl I. Scharnhorst class its a 1935 tech design..
Cause this situation all german BBs models in the game are shifted of 1 generation. Bismarck should be a BB of lvl III and not II.

Unfortunately the WW1 German BBs was sunked, but was not a valid reason for not create a tech with this ship in the game.
Create a tech WW1 BB for germany whitout any existant ships of this class in the game start.

In conclusion i think its more realistic redone german BB ship tech adding one BB class before Scharnhorst class.
For example König class or Bayern class can take this place for Germany tech tree as lvl I BB......than shift Scharnhorst to LVL 2 and Bismark to lvl III.

I'm not sure I agree with that, even with the refits the Italian battleships shouldn't be a tier higher then the Queen Es, if anything it should be the other way around. The refits are actually pretty similar to German WWI battlecruisers at Jutland, relatively small guns ( for that time, nevermind WW2 ) decent armor and some speed, the Italian refits crank the speed up further but do little to address the other shortcomings.

I do agree of course that some more nuance is needed in the pre-game tech levels, refer to this for a rough sketch of what I feel would be an improved tech breakdown.

 

[Will Steel]

Few human players could be as ineffective as Il Duce. One mid-war German evaluation of Italian war production cited in
"Mussolini's Italy : life under the dictatorship, 1915-1945" (R.J.B. Bosworth 2006) was that it was only operating at about 25% of possible efficiency. Considering Mussolini's "monocratic" and I think often impulsive patronage-based approach to dictatorship, a great deal of that slack and waste could have been taken out through good government and professional industrial management. It would have taken strong leadership to bend cultural predilections to the service of wartime needs. So an Italy with unrealized potential should be the default.

To be honest, that was exactly the main difference between Italian and German fascist states. Hitler put a heavy focus on bringing the industrial management and efficiency to a peak, while Mussolini could've done a lot for military and industry if he made some real organized effort...which he didn't do.

 

[Denkt]

Italy don't have the resources Germany have. How industralized is Italy today compared to Germany?

 

[Le_Carabinier]

The naval tree of most majors will have to be re-arranged with mods. The tree isn't bad in itself, but the labels they chose to put on the different units make no sense in many cases : every picture taken of a nation's naval tree is met with pages of criticism.

The land tree are good, but maybe they need some reshuffling too. I'm not sure about using the P26/43 as a Tiger II / IS-2 equivalent. It should be used as a Panther equivalent, with the 40 model used a Pz IV equivalent. A fictional tank can be used for the 1943 heavy slot.

Same for America, I think the Pershing should be used as a 1943 medium, leaving the 1943 heavy slot for the T-29 heavy tank prototype. Instead, the Pershing fills the 1943-heavy slot and the 1943-medium is taken by an even more obscure prototype, the T20.

 

[Denkt]

The naval tree of most majors will have to be re-arranged with mods.

HOI4 is formost a game not a historical lesson and the tech tree fill that purpose very well.

 

[Loke]

Is it worth it to build an Italian Navy? If so what stragity would be most effective for the war?

Yes, historical build with focus on airpower, Nav/Tac use the islands of the Med as unsinkable carriers.

 

[BBBD316]

Really I think Il Duce is better off looking towards Spain, a war goal against Spain early on. Invade during the civil war, then move towards the Allies.

Fortify the Alps and focus on a good interceptor, then use your navy to complete naval landings in the Balkans. If France falls you are in prime position to take out Vichy.

Heck if you want a reborn Roman Empire get the European bits not North African stuff.

 

[Will Steel]

Yes, historical build with focus on airpower, Nav/Tac use the islands of the Med as unsinkable carriers.

A sizeable armada is still needed as the planes won't be able to completely sink enemy ships though. While they can be prevented from crossing into Suez with effort, the Gibraltar crossing is still open and huge fleets might be barge in from there.

Islands get troops landed on them really fast.