Is it worth it to build an Italian Navy?

[SturmerFIN]

Build some factories, BBs, support brigades, light tanks and lease landing crafts.
Join axis but stay out of ww2.
1938 take yugoslavia, albania, greece, bulgaria.
1939 take Spain.
Hold france. Leave it to germany.
Take gipraltar and sueze canal.
Starve royal navy that is trapped in mediteria.
Brittish might try invasion to spain but use terrain and motorized divisions to cut their supply. Destroy trapped divisions.

 

[tommylotto]

It looks to me that Italy's battleship building program is a waste of precious resources. It can never hope to compete with the RN. So, it would be better off concentrating on a strong Air Force to dominate the central Mediterranean from island land bases and building tanks and trucks for its forces in Libya. With the planes, you neutralize Malta and keep the supply lines to Libya open long enough for your Ariete and Littorio armored divisions and your Trento and Trieste motorized division to scamper across the Egyptian desert and seize the Suez Canal. That still leaves the Mediterranean open at Gibraltar, and Gibraltar should be beyond Italy's reach unless it some how controls Spain.

However, with HoiIV mechanics, it should be interesting. You may not want to waste resources on a navy, but then what do you do with all those dockyards. You have them, you might as well use them... I say convoys, escorts and light attack craft. And lots of X MAS frogmen blowing up enemy battleships!!!

 

[seattle]

It looks to me that Italy's battleship building program is a waste of precious resources. It can never hope to compete with the RN. So, it would be better off concentrating on a strong Air Force to dominate the central Mediterranean from island land bases and building tanks and trucks for its forces in Libya. With the planes, you neutralize Malta and keep the supply lines to Libya open long enough for your Ariete and Littorio armored divisions and your Trento and Trieste motorized division to scamper across the Egyptian desert and seize the Suez Canal. That still leaves the Mediterranean open at Gibraltar, and Gibraltar should be beyond Italy's reach unless it some how controls Spain.

However, with HoiIV mechanics, it should be interesting. You may not want to waste resources on a navy, but then what do you do with all those dockyards. You have them, you might as well use them... I say convoys, escorts and light attack craft. And lots of X MAS frogmen blowing up enemy battleships!!!

It depends on what your goals are.
The UK and US will always have a use for a strong navy due to their location on the world map.
If Italy's strategy is "conquer Suez and Gibraltar, then assist Germany against Russia" then Italy won't need a navy, at least not in the long run. After Suez/Gibraltar the navy would be utterly useless. I wouldn't mind the dockyards, the resources needed for ship construction can be used for tanks instead (metal and oil).

 

[Centerbe]

This is a follow up to my earlier post, but here we can see Italy's resource production....
I has no oil, rubber, Tungsten, or chromium. This is not a really good situation.
However, we can see on the very right chromium in Albania and Yugoslavia.
Anyone find a map with the resource values of regions?

yes i saw resounces in germany and england...
aniway appear a little unrealistic resource production,

tungsten was in sardinia and friuli regions
chrome was only in rodi island, aniway inside ita territory
oil was few, but present in emilia romagna and basilicata regions (12,5% of italian requirement was extract in homeland in 1934)
steel was extracted around 2 millions of tons/year in 1936
for aluminum italy produced 10% in 1934 and 12% of the total world extraction of bauxite in 1940, was one of the bigger bauxite producer of the world.

 

[Zoob]

Naval industries are seperate from Civilian Factories and Military Factories, so it makes sense to be building a navy of some sorts, the question is what you focus on.

 

[seattle]

Naval industries are seperate from Civilian Factories and Military Factories, so it makes sense to be building a navy of some sorts, the question is what you focus on.

They still share the same pool of resources. War ships cost steel and oil, so do mobile land forces.

 

[Centerbe]

Naval industries are seperate from Civilian Factories and Military Factories, so it makes sense to be building a navy of some sorts, the question is what you focus on.

but dockyards consume oil the same, in the game u will have problem for oil requirements.....

 

[Zoob]

Oh of course there is resources to consider too. But you can shove something into the naval dockyards to be created whether you supply the resources or not, it will take just take longer to produce what you want I imagine.

 

[Centerbe]

cause in the game a lack of resource dont stop production, yes...u are right

 

[Amur_Tiger]

If you're going to end up fighting for Africa then you need a fleet. I have relatively little experience in HoI 3 with this sort of thing but just from a historical standpoint the Italian Navy was by far the most important branch of it's armed forces in determining the outcome of the war. You're going to want something like 4-5 modern battleships, the refit battleships were actually pretty useless in terms of actually winning the Mediterranean in the first place, none of them had the firepower to make any active part of the British Navy worry too much. With that many battleships you should have a decent chance of running the capital ships of the British Navy out of the Med either by destroying them or damaging them enough that they withdraw at which point you park your new battleships in the western Med near Sicily under air cover, locking down any shipping trying to cross the Med from that direction while the older battleships keep an eye on anything coming through Suez.

Carriers wouldn't be useful as they'd simply be an expensive runway which you could have built in any number of places around the Med so the use of a carrier is going to be quite limited, maybe if things are going fantastic you'll find them useful if you want to directly challenge the bulk of the Royal Navy/US Navy in the Atlantic. As I imply though naval bombers are going to be very important as are fighters to provide air cover.

 

[Centerbe]

the Italian Navy was by far the most important branch of it's armed forces in determining the outcome of the war.

Not in this game, it will start with less navy than history and less than previous games. I dont know if its a good strategy rebuilt it new with the lack of resources and long production time. Probably it havent sufficient time.

 

[tommylotto]

Italy only starts with 2 BB's, but have we seen the Italian production queue? I assume it will start with Littorio and Vittorio Veneto partially completed as well as two rebuilds partially completed. That should be 6 BB's just by completing what is already in the dockyards.

Still, I would starve those BB projects of oil and use the oil to build planes, tanks, and trucks instead.

 

[Centerbe]

tommy i doubt in the 36 scenario there will be any production queue....
moreover the 2 littorio are lvl 3 bbs than i think its not possible italy have just developed this tech at game start.

 

[tommylotto]

Well, the Bismarck-class is only level II. So, I doubt the Littorio-class will be level III. I would make the Littorio and the Vittorio Veneto level II and have them in the queue partially built (they were started in late 1934) and the two Conte rebuilds, still level I with some modification using the variant system, also in the queue (their reconstruction began in late 1933).

 

[Director]

If you assume the fleet that Italy actually built is the maximum power they could build, then any improvements or changes would have to come at the price of restrictions elsewhere. If it were up to me, the Italian Navy would let some of the BB conversion/construction go in favor of air wings plus more destroyers and light cruisers... but that's just me.

For my part, I'd rather have a more technically-advanced but smaller force backed up by capable naval air, and I'd want a better submarine doctrine and some kind of decent night-fighting doctrine for the surface fleet. Land-based naval air in theory is an ideal force-multiplier for the Italian Navy but in practice would have two negative qualities. The islands may be unsinkable aircraft carriers, but it is harder to move squadrons from island to island than to move a carrier (in real life - not in the game). And second, the Navy would have to constantly fight off attempts by the Army and Air Force to divert the naval air assets to other purposes. But a strong naval air arm based on Sicily and Malta would go a long way to giving Italy control of the Mediterranean. The British dilemma of having too many demands and not enough ships to meet them all comes into play here; they might let Malta go and try to hang onto Gibraltar and Suez, abandoning the central Med for the near future.

Most of the strategic ideas posted here seem very good to me: use naval and air power to take Malta, then use command of the sea to adequately supply a full-scale assault on Suez (assuming the Army is competent enough to do that). Taking Gibraltar is a great idea in the game but a bad one in the real world for many reasons (most of which were outlined in a thread on the topic) but mostly it boils down to 1) too tough, 2) too important to Spain and 3) unnecessary because your fleet won't go west of the Balearics anyway.

Once Malta is taken and Suez secured, the Italian Navy's role becomes mostly if not purely defensive. Operating in the Atlantic or Indian Ocean takes you out of your air cover and gives the British the chance to chop off whatever you send out. Of course, you could 'mop up' Crete and maybe Cyprus, but if you have control of the Med then those become of secondary importance.

 

[Diwtop]

I dont get it why you all want to import 2 ressources for planes. Rubber and oil.

To build ships you only need to import oil.

Do i miss an important information?

 

[Centerbe]

Well, the Bismarck-class is only level II. So, I doubt the Littorio-class will be level III. I would make the Littorio and the Vittorio Veneto level II and have them in the queue partially built (they were started in late 1934) and the two Conte rebuilds, still level I with some modification using the variant system, also in the queue (their reconstruction began in late 1933).

I totally agree with you tommy the levels are not correct in comparison, but its not my opinion, its obvious deduction by gameplay screen.
look here;

Its clear the Caio Duilio Class its a level II BB ... than the Littorio Class is a lvl III. So also if i agree with you, paradox decided differently.
Than the littorio sure will not in queue at game start as lvl III BB, and i have serious doubts also Caio Duilio its in queue ready for 1937.
Also if historically Caio Duilio class was a refit of old BBs paradox put it in the game as a new lvl of BB (lvl II).
In conclusion as Johan sayd, Italy have only 2 BBs at start and its all, no queue.... all the others require research and a new build.

If you assume the fleet that Italy actually built is the maximum power they could build, then any improvements or changes would have to come at the price of restrictions elsewhere. If it were up to me, the Italian Navy would let some of the BB conversion/construction go in favor of air wings plus more destroyers and light cruisers... but that's just me.

What restriction you are talking? Why was the maximum?
U know other 2 littorio class BBs was under construction (Roma and Impero) and also 2 CVs (Aquila and Sparviero) and dozen of other ships?

I dont get it why you all want to import 2 ressources for planes. Rubber and oil.

with the actual syntetic oil system nobody need import nothing, u can get how much oil and rubber u want with it.

 

[Mannstien]

CVs in the med? What a waste. It's full of islands that can support a far more effective naval air force.

As Italy, I'll stick with their four historical BBs and a suitable quantity of screens/escorts, and focus far more effort on land-based fighters and naval bombers to fight the Royal Navy and bomb supply convoys bound for Malta.

This pretty much.

A navy and more important a LAND based airforce is very important for italy if it wants to compete in the Mediterranean. BBs with Destroyers and other smaller ships to act as an escort would be vital along with Interceptors with good range and naval bombers.

Planning a carrier fleet for italy vastly over estimates its resources and production power and after all you have the unsinkable "carriers" of the Italian peninsula, sicily, sardania, and provinces in north Africa that just need an airport that will give you the same effect for much cheaper.

Indeed

 

[Director]

Centerbe, I did say, "if you assume," and I said that because most games have a zero-sum economy. If you have 100 units of element x you can build things, but you can't use 100 units for one thing and use 100 units for another thing.

Yes, I know the Italians were building other ships during the course of the war. That's included in "If you assume the fleet that Italy actually built".

 

[Centerbe]

i read it... but cant understand the point.....
how naval dockyard capacity restrict air wings build up?

if u are talking about the total max general production, it was limited by a resource in HOI4 its not present.
Than?