Is it safe to purchase Victoria now?

[unmerged(9385)]

Poor comparisons

I disagree. Have you purchased some games like NHL 200X ?
These games are absolutely finished products which are ten times more stable in the box-version than any(!) Paradox game in any(!) of the patches.
Have you played e.g. Starcraft ?
The balancing was and is spotlessy good (in the box-version!), compared to Paradox games coming out totally unbalanced and getting better over time, but still not being that balanced like Starcraft, evn in an 1.08 patch 2 years after release.
This is why my opinion about the quality of Paradox customer support is contrary to most of the people who dare to post it here.

I really have to disagree here. Comparing any complex, vast in scope strategy game with its huge amount of variables with such simple twitch and click fare as Starcraft or a console sports game is simply wrong.

Victoria is a highly complex strategy title with significant subtle interplay between many many variables and should be compared with the relatively few complex strategy games in the market such as Galactic Civilizations, MOO3 or Uncommon Valor.

Starcraft is a well made RTS where the most complicated, intellectually challenging decision is how to handle a zerg rush or are my reflexes fast enough to circle that pile of whatevers and have them go wherever. I'm sure the programming for primarily the graphics are quite impressive but the game being modelled is only a step up from tic-tac-toe and balancing such simple find rocks, build building, build units-rinse repeat economics and simple attack/defense factors in combat is hardly comparable. I'm sure Super Mario or Final Fantasy XXLIV are wonderfully balanced right out of the box as well but comparing them to Victoria or any other Paradox product is meaningless.

If Starcraft or NHL 200? is the standard by which Paradox is being judged, sell the computer and get a PS2 or an Xbox, you will be happier. If you want a genuine strategy game that requires thought over reflexes, stick around for the progress with Victoria.

 

[Spruce]

I agree with Scotsman, some people have expectations that niche games should fullfill block buster standards,

as an act of definition, niche products can outlive such criticism like "those products are not perfect", people want them for other reasons, oh spicey!

that's the issue with MOO3, Atari saw MOO3 as a blockbuster title and NOT a niche title. In fact MOO3 would have been a good game if the marketing guys and management guys would have had reasonable expectations,

so let's us as customers also have fair expectations. What products are available in the market - grand strategy (level of Victoria and MOO3) to compare Victoria with?

no seriously, niche products are becoming much more rare on this planet - in spite to the fact that we all should be "inventive" and come up with niche products,

so it all comes down to niche products and marketing - how to manage this is a great endaveour,

for sure you can't do this by making a manual that's obsolete when it's a month old,

however, non internet users are missing a great deal of information here and they have my great sympathy and support, but for those with internet connection - THIS FORUM IS THE MANUAL,

:wacko:

 

[unmerged(1104)]

Well put Spruce.

 

[Darkrenown]

I've never stumbeld upon large partisan problems, honestly,

Neither had I untill my current game as the USA, UK DoWed me and I took most of Canada and 30k armies of partisans started springing up everywhere.

 

[unmerged(6618)]

Its stable, and the gameplay is generally good, but with a few obvious quirks that need to be ironed out (such as the partisan issue). If you are looking for it smooth out of the box, I'd suggest waiting a couple months, like Suleyman said... If you are looking for it playable, it definitely is playable now, with a couple annoyances that can be worked around somewhat (much better, in implementing the basic concepts, than EUII 1.00/1.01 or from what I gather the early HOIs). I still like EUII better, but that may change.

 

[unmerged(3084)]

I recently bought Victoria and am playing it straight out of the box, no patches.

I have had no crashes at all in perhaps 10 hours of play. I have had no problems at all with stability (I have a fairly cheap computer too). It runs fine.

BTW I am enjoying the game. I see many significant changes and improvements compared to EU2. I find this game is more complex and more absorbing.

 

[Mozart41st]

I agree, go out and buy it immediately. Victoria 1.02 (with mods) is the best damn Paradox game to date.

 

[Brannart]

I said even prior to release to wait wait wait for patches. Hounded as I was for saying it, I still stand by it.

Purchase this game around 1.05.

...so let's us as customers also have fair expectations. What products are available in the market - grand strategy (level of Victoria and MOO3) to compare Victoria with?

Europa-Universalis. And therein lies the rub...

I'm of the opinion that a fair number of folks who complain about Victoria are fans of Paradox's previous games. Victoria is their most complex offering to date and I think it has taken a fair number of loyal players out at the knees.

Paradox doesn't simply create niche games, it is the niche for many intelligent strategy gamers. They've learned this upon purchase of any previous Paradox product. The Europa-Universalis series is, as I have said many times, a work of art. History rich and complex while at the same time easy to grasp and a joy to master. One need not delve into the intricacies and nuances of EU2 to have a fun, rewarding game.

But Victoria is a wholly different beast. Every part of Victoria is, by design, sophisticated, elaborate, and utterly complicated. No longer is it unnecessary for one to delve into complex intricacies and nuances to have fun; with this game they must. For some, me among them, that's ok. (But that doesn't change the fact that it's taken us a fair amount of time to learn. I've had it since Christmas and am only now "feeling my legs".) For others Victoria appears as a direct contrivance of the formula that made them love Europa-Universalis. They're right, but this is neither a good nor a bad thing. Victoria isn't a child of EU and for some this is both unexpected and unwanted. That means it simply isn't their game. Don't begrudge them for it. Nothing is perfect.

Paradox included.

 

[Spruce]

Brannart,

honestly i felt a bit offended by EU2, the game was much more fun compared to EU1, but I never got the feeling it to be a quite "different" game,

I saw it as an "improved" EU1 game. Bottomline is that my feeling were wrong, because in EU2 you could play any nation and new features were added. This needed extra Paradox resources (balancing, coding, etc),

anyhow, I didn't saw EU2 as an innovative game. EU1 is that - for me anyhow,

- I'll leave HOI out of the picture here -

with Victoria they've made a new and different game,

and to decide if a game is too complicated or so is a personal choice, like I said the only problem with Paradox games is people lacking an internet link to this forum,

Only 30 minutes after I had the game, I had won a war, I had a positive cash reserve and I was still a great power and I had claimed my first colony. I don't want to show off here, but why is everybody shouting the game is too complicated ?

bottomline, Paradox games are always a challenge and there's nothing wrong with that. The top=action layer and the bottom=foundation layer is an element that will be used in the coming decade for games,

A personal impression = I wasn't in the mood for EU2+EU0.1 ~ EU3. I was in the mood for Victoria, let's be patient and wait for EU3 until it's ready,

 

[unmerged(17324)]

I'd have to say wait another six months to a year as well. The game is clearly not finished with one patch causing bugs and problems with other things, just like ALL Paradox games do, until around the 5th or later patches. Though HOI I fear will never be fixed, the AI in it needs so much work they might as well make another game, which I wouldn't buy anyways.

Wait and get it cheaper and in a lot better working condition, let the fan(atics) support the "pay us now, we'll fix it later" Paradox company and save yourself some frustration and money. Combat Mission Africa Korp is much more fun.

 

[Brannart]

Only 30 minutes after I had the game, I had won a war, I had a positive cash reserve and I was still a great power and I had claimed my first colony. I don't want to show off here, but why is everybody shouting the game is too complicated ?

To answer your question:

to decide if a game is too complicated or so is a personal choice

You may find the game easy. That's great! But don't begrude the opinions of those who find it difficult. After all, they've paid money for this product, too. Don't they deserve somethine for it? If not, then Paradox will be kissing its market goodbye.

like I said the only problem with Paradox games is people lacking an internet link to this forum

Well, not the only problem, but a big one.

It puts an new light on the issue of a flimsy manual.

Also, pity those who never get to download the deluge of patches and mods required to make the game complete.

 

[Darkrenown]

It puts an new light on the issue of a flimsy manual.

Also, pity those who never get to download the deluge of patches and mods required to make the game complete.

The publisher insited the manual had to be under 50 (or was it 60?) pages and then they managed to mess up the printing on a couple of pages.

Here in the UK 80% of homes with a computer have an internet connection, and I'd imagine most of those that don't could ask a friend to get the patch for them. I don't think the numbers could be that much lower for the US and the rest of western europe. Hopefully most people can get the patches somehow, mods too if they want them but they aren't necessary.

 

[Brannart]

The publisher insited the manual had to be under 50 (or was it 60?) pages and then they managed to mess up the printing on a couple of pages.

"It's the publisher's fault" has been the mantra since EU2. Many others with noses browner than mine have said that it's time for Paradox to find a new publisher. I agree.

But then again, wasn't Paradox (Patric, if memory serves me) praising Victoria's manual as superb, prior to release? I can find the quotes if need be...

 

[Johan]

But then again, wasn't Paradox (Patric, if memory serves me) praising Victoria's manual as superb, prior to release? I can find the quotes if need be...

It was me.. I was convinced it was great.. since we had focused entirely on the things everybody complained about on the eu2 and hoi manuals. ie, writing about how the interface worked, and what each thing was in the game.

In eu1's manual we wrote mostly about the history and concepts. Everybody disliked it.
In eu2's manual we wrote mostly about the concepts, and how they worked. And everybody disliked it.
In Hoi's manual we hired a professional writer with lots of manuals behind him. And everybody hated it.
In Victoria's manual, we wrote it internally, together with development, so it would not have errors, and we focused solely on interface and what game held, and everybody hated it.

I'm thinking, it doesn't matter what we do with the manual, People will hate it anyway.

 

[AVN]

It was me.. I was convinced it was great.. since we had focused entirely on the things everybody complained about on the eu2 and hoi manuals. ie, writing about how the interface worked, and what each thing was in the game.

In eu1's manual we wrote mostly about the history and concepts. Everybody disliked it.
In eu2's manual we wrote mostly about the concepts, and how they worked. And everybody disliked it.
In Hoi's manual we hired a professional writer with lots of manuals behind him. And everybody hated it.
In Victoria's manual, we wrote it internally, together with development, so it would not have errors, and we focused solely on interface and what game held, and everybody hated it.

I'm thinking, it doesn't matter what we do with the manual, People will hate it anyway.

Johan,
I haven't read the Vicky manual yet, because I don't have the game yet (it's difficult to buy it here in the NL, I believe I have to import it from Russia, that seems to be the easiest way to get it )

But I have EU2 and HOI and I have read those manuals and I can say you I liked them. They really helped me in getting used to the game.
So not everybody hated those manuals, although there value became less after a few patches.

I hope you feel a little bit better now

 

[unmerged(14180)]

Ok, first about the manuals.

EU2, Manual was fine for me, i have no idea what your talking about Johan, perhaps you can give a link to someone complaining? its outdated now after the patchs, but thats what you get with patches.

HOI, not much wrong here, just the fact it tells you things that you can do.....but you cannot do them. various effects that differents generals had that don't seem to work, etc etc.....but i still found the manual fine apart from those points, you noticed what i wrote above yourself yes?

Vicky, got to the point, but it didn't have enough pages for the most complicated paradox game yet. It certainly told you the rudimentary things you can do, and how to do them, but no hints and tips.....no knowledge of the various generals abilities, no idea on certain ways to do things, etc, etc.....luckily for you guys, the brilliant tooltips made the game doable, and then enjoyable by perservering. The manual isn't that bad, and instead of getting pissed at people getting angry, just take it as initial frustration.

If your not going to have a tutorial, then try to give a written play example, or an extensive hints and tips line, the ingame ones are ok at first, but now outdated with patches, perhaps they can be updated with patches too?

I must ask though, why did the publishers change their minds on the manual size now?

Now to Grosshaus.

I noticed you said you don't need to worry about partisans as long as you don't get involved in wars of conquest.....sorry old boy, but in order to even get a white peace half the time, you need to totally flatten the bad guy that DOW on you, and sometimes even take their capital in order to make them stop being so silly. not always, but quite often.

Example, I as Austria got involved in that Danish war thing, i managed to take all of mainland denmark, then just wanted them to accept a white peace which gave me a little prestige, they were not interested......meanwhile, i got 7 revolts of 10,000 regulars each in 2 different provinces over a couple of months waiting, trying to get the danes to accept a white peace.....

wars of conquest indeed!

 

[Grosshaus]

In eu1's manual we wrote mostly about the history and concepts. Everybody disliked it.

I'm thinking, it doesn't matter what we do with the manual, People will hate it anyway.

I liked EU1 manual, not very usefull for learning the game but great bed-time reading.

 

[Grosshaus]

Now to Grosshaus.

I noticed you said you don't need to worry about partisans as long as you don't get involved in wars of conquest.....sorry old boy, but in order to even get a white peace half the time, you need to totally flatten the bad guy that DOW on you, and sometimes even take their capital in order to make them stop being so silly. not always, but quite often.

Example, I as Austria got involved in that Danish war thing, i managed to take all of mainland denmark, then just wanted them to accept a white peace which gave me a little prestige, they were not interested......meanwhile, i got 7 revolts of 10,000 regulars each in 2 different provinces over a couple of months waiting, trying to get the danes to accept a white peace.....

wars of conquest indeed!

Well yeah. I've played 1.02 only with pretty remote middle-powers like Spain, Brazil or Sweden which can remain neutral with relative ease. It seems it's different especially for majors, perhaps also to minors who are assigned as targets.

 

[Dinsdale]

I liked EU1 manual, not very usefull for learning the game but great bed-time reading.

I agree it was the best manual. It was/is one of the only manuals for a game which actually described what to do in the game, though it was a little light on how to do things.

Most manuals go through options and screens without ever explaining what should be done.

---------------------

To the original question; yes it is safe to buy, it always was safe to buy the game.

 

[J.J.E.]

I liked EU1 manual, not very usefull for learning the game but great bed-time reading.

The HoI manuals history section also provided great bed-time reading for me!