Is it possible to play tall?

[wergy]

One of the greatest concepts added to EU4 was the wide vs. tall mechanism, so you are not forced to conquer new territories to become stronger.
But in Stellaris it seems rather doubtful if you could play tall instead of wide. It is relatively easy to max out all your planets, your fleet and all the anomalies you have access to. Diplomacy is rather simplistic, so you can't really gain too much from trading (unless you are able to buy all the tech from your allies making development completely pointless like in the Galactic Civilizations series). And you have no way of boosting your development skills - no other that other "wide" species couldn't get just as you do that is - by only developing of what you already have.
Am I missing something or is there really no way to win a game playing tall in Stellaris?

 

[Zaku]

If there is a technological victory that can be achieved by playing tall. Tech costs are based on population, so having few colonies, but lots of tech buildings/stations would be beneficial for that.

 

[TheRealSlimJim]

Well assuming you have a few decent systems with good amounts of minerals and tech resources you could probably survive relatively well. Like you could focus on forming federations, being a space hippy, focusing on tech and constantly upgrading all of your buildings and stations etc. You would also have the bonus of not having to deal with as much ethics divergence and the problems that a wide species would have to deal with.

Also I think either way you played the game both wide and tall species would have a rough time facing end game crises.

 

[Nirmara]

Buildings can get upgraded more than once and we can expect the price to increase exponentially. If said upgraded buildings are good enough, we can expect going tall to be an option. The stability tall empire will enjoy should also be an advantage over wide empire. Of course, this is just speculation.

 

[wergy]

But then you won't have a strong military to defend those colonies so you will be overwhelmed by big empires with units inferior in tech but far superior in number... In EU4 you could increase your FL by developing your provinces.

 

[Zorromorph]

Can't your increase the limit in Stellaris by upgrading spaceports though?

 

[Zaku]

But then you won't have a strong military to defend those colonies so you will be overwhelmed by big empires with units inferior in tech but far superior in number... In EU4 you could increase your FL by developing your provinces.

You can also develop your planets and space bases in Stellaris.
Better tech = better buildings, not to mention the better weapons for your bases and fleet.

 

[TheRealSlimJim]

You can also develop your planets and space bases in Stellaris.
Better tech = better buildings, not to mention the better weapons for your bases and fleet.

Also fortresses have had some really high strength numbers attached so it looks like tall turtleing is a viable play style.

 

[wergy]

But won't other races with more tech resources be ahead of you in tech unless you keep colonizing more planets with such resources yourself?

 

[Zaku]

But won't other races with more tech resources be ahead of you in tech unless you keep colonizing more planets with such resources yourself?

No because as I said tech costs are based on population.

 

[ahhheygao]

One of the greatest concepts added to EU4 was the wide vs. tall mechanism, so you are not forced to conquer new territories to become stronger.

Ugh, OPMs becoming the most developed provinces in the world with far higher military tech than major powers. Good times.

But in Stellaris it seems rather doubtful if you could play tall instead of wide. It is relatively easy to max out all your planets, your fleet and all the anomalies you have access to.

Yup., but you can make friends via diplomacy and ask for civilian access if you want to survey more anomalies... and maybe permission to construct worm hole stations in allied territories. The simplistic diplomacy that you looked down upon is your key to more anomalies.

Diplomacy is rather simplistic, so you can't really gain too much from trading (unless you are able to buy all the tech from your allies making development completely pointless like in the Galactic Civilizations series).

Tech trading tends to be a terribly exploitable design in 4x, so thank God PDS deliberately avoided it. Tech cost inflation increases based on total POP, so small empire isn't completely screwed due to missing out on more tech income.

And you have no way of boosting your development skills - no other that other "wide" species couldn't get just as you do that is - by only developing of what you already have.

Such is life. Join a federation/alliance if you insist on remaining small and developing in peace.

Am I missing something or is there really no way to win a game playing tall in Stellaris?

Nah, sounds about right. More territory, resources, and lebensraum always help, though small empire won't have to worry as much about ethos divergence and rebel factions. You also have around the same Influence mana as large empires for your edicts and policies, since that doesn't change with size. Finally, as a small peaceful empire, you likely won't piss off other big empires, alliances, and federations... as long as you don't become a vulnerable prey.

 

[QDI]

No because as I said tech costs are based on population.

Sadly, the scaling does not seem strong enough to make a tall empire better than a wide.

You only gain +2% tech cost per pop above 10. To break even, a 100 pop empire would need to produce 25% more science per pop than a 300 pop empire.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

The great virtue of being small, I believe, is that you won't suffer as much from ethos divergence or internal dissatisfaction. The downside is that you're not going to be able to be a galactic powerhouse.

 

[Aquilegia]

Create a Federation. Use the grant independence wargoal to create smaller states with the same ethos, likely to join your federations. Make a few small vassals, or try to conquer a few planets and give them limited independence after.

 

[Zaku]

Sadly, the scaling does not seem strong enough to make a tall empire better than a wide.

You only gain +2% tech cost per pop above 10. To break even, a 100 pop empire would need to produce 25% more science per pop than a 300 pop empire.

So if a tech costs 100 points:
It would cost a 100 pop empire 280 points
It would cost a 300 pop empire 680 points
So this means a 300 pop empire has around 2,5 times more expensive tech, while being 3x as popolous as the 100 pop empire.
Luckily for the tall empire pops are not the only source for tech. Space bases also give lots of it.
An other point is that a wide empire would need to build much more buildings and bases to achieve the same amout of boost in tech progression than a tall one.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

Luckily for the tall empire pops are not the onyl source for tech. Space bases also give lots of it.

Space bases are going to be the main advantage of wide empires, I think, because the number of them you get is almost purely a function of how many systems you have inside your borders. This means that big thinly-spread empires will always have more stations than small, densely-populated empires.

 

[Zaku]

Space bases are going to be the main advantage of wide empires, I think, because the number of them you get is almost purely a function of how many systems you have inside your borders.

You can increase your borders with frontier bases as well.

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

You can increase your borders with frontier bases as well.

Is that not the very definition of playing wide? Or do I misunderstand the terms here?

 

[Zaku]

Is that not the very definition of playing wide? Or do I misunderstand the terms here?

I think "tall" empire means that you will only take control of the most important/valuable colonies and develop them as much as you can.
A "wide" empire plays like the good old blorg: Just conquer and colonize everything in your path.

Note: I'm not saying that tall is as effetive as wide in the game. I would need to play the game first to know that.
I'm saying that theoretically there are ways to stay relevant as a tall empire.

 

[ahhheygao]

Is that not the very definition of playing wide? Or do I misunderstand the terms here?

I think so, but he's probably thinking about "wide" as in colonizing and conquering populated planets instead of peacefully calling dibs on empty systems.