Is it possible to institute slavery?

[ZhangWuJi]

Was reading the brazilian slavery thread about ending slavery and didn't want to change the topic in that thread (although closely related)...

Is it possible for a country that does not start with slavery to gain the ability to hold slaves? I know its a horrible thing in reality and I would never dream of condoning it. But, in Victoria, the slave POP has almost no requirements or daily needs and are very cheap to have in general. So was curious if it was possible.

Maybe I didn't notice but I have no idea... though I play this game to death since it came out and the only way I even heard it was possible was to change the country file. Was just curious if there was an in game way.

 

[EUnderhill]

Was reading the brazilian slavery thread about ending slavery and didn't want to change the topic in that thread (although closely related)...

Is it possible for a country that does not start with slavery to gain the ability to hold slaves? I know its a horrible thing in reality and I would never dream of condoning it. But, in Victoria, the slave POP has almost no requirements or daily needs and are very cheap to have in general. So was curious if it was possible.

Maybe I didn't notice but I have no idea... though I play this game to death since it came out and the only way I even heard it was possible was to change the country file. Was just curious if there was an in game way.

I would think that you could write an event as well to do the job. Just remember that if you have slaves that have a state culture it will stunt your research.

 

[Minarchist]

It actually makes pretty good sense to me that a country should be able to gain slaves through some series of events. But i dont think that a civilized nation should be able to gain slaves A) of a state culture or B) on the European continent. I cannot think of any historical examples because quite frankly, I try to stay as far away from the subject of slavery as possible; its just too depressing. But it just seems to me that unfortunatly, slavery was a part of this time period, but I *do* think that if a country gained slaves then there should be some serious repercussions with some great powers, first and foremost, the UK. IIRC, the UK was the first nation that made a serious effort to stop the slave trade; and, I believe it was very successful in doing so (on the seas that is). It might be hard to put into the game engine, though.

 

[Novea]

Remeber the events punish Annam and punish Burma ? Perhaps a similar event could be included .

Frankly though , any attempt to hold onto blatant slavery would have been something socialists would have exploited.

 

[ComradeOm]

AFAIK its impossible to achieve merely through the game mechanics. This reflects the fact that the era of large scale slavery was largely dying out throughout the world during the Vicky timeframe.

 

[Ayn Mandarb]

This is the 200th anniversary of the UK decided to end the slave trade - and to use the Royal Navy to enforce that on other nations . . . 30 years before the start of Victoria.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

IIRC for example the CSA has a late political party that is pro-slavery, so I assume returning to slavery is a simple amtte of having a party that supports it...hence the problem.

And I was under the general impression that slaves were generally a bad deal, especially when that part of your population isnt paying taxes.

 

[ZhangWuJi]

IIRC for example the CSA has a late political party that is pro-slavery, so I assume returning to slavery is a simple amtte of having a party that supports it...hence the problem.

And I was under the general impression that slaves were generally a bad deal, especially when that part of your population isnt paying taxes.

Based on what I saw, pro-slavery parties are almost non-existent in the game, although there is still more than a handful. Slaves cannot be taxed that is right but they also have the smallest lists of everyday goods of all the POPs. Also, or because of the short list of goods, whenever I played a slave using country I never had them revolt. I've had their "masters" revolt before them. Plus, in game terms, they work RGOs the same as the cultural majority, allowing the majority to be converted to factories workers and clerks. IMO that set up is more efficient since cultural minority doesnt gain a factory working bonus.

Though if you want to micromanage I am sure you can set that up without having slavery. I was more concerned with giving an ahistorical choice based on what could have happened during the Age of Imperialism.

 

[unmerged(42174)]

Based on what I saw, pro-slavery parties are almost non-existent in the game, although there is still more than a handful. Slaves cannot be taxed that is right but they also have the smallest lists of everyday goods of all the POPs. Also, or because of the short list of goods, whenever I played a slave using country I never had them revolt. I've had their "masters" revolt before them. Plus, in game terms, they work RGOs the same as the cultural majority, allowing the majority to be converted to factories workers and clerks. IMO that set up is more efficient since cultural minority doesnt gain a factory working bonus.

Though if you want to micromanage I am sure you can set that up without having slavery. I was more concerned with giving an ahistorical choice based on what could have happened during the Age of Imperialism.

I think more nations should have slavery in the setup of the grand campaign. I cannot list them here, since I do not know all the historical facts, but Sweden should have slavery for example, although no slave pops since the colonies were too small to be represented in Victoria. If sweden somehow decided to gain larger colonies that had already slave pops, they should remain slaves until the "end of slavery" event fired. I guess the same should be valid for other nations as well.

 

[unmerged(35772)]

This is the 200th anniversary of the UK decided to end the slave trade - and to use the Royal Navy to enforce that on other nations . . . 30 years before the start of Victoria.

In the interest of accuracy I present the following information.

Following the work of campaigners in the United Kingdom, the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act was passed by Parliament on March 25, 1807. The act imposed a fine of £100 for every slave found aboard a British ship.

The Slavery Abolition Act, passed on August 23, 1833, outlawed slavery itself in the British colonies. On August 1, 1834 all slaves in the British Empire were emancipated, but still indentured to their former owners in an apprenticeship system which was finally abolished in 1838.

In 1772, a legal case concerning James Somersett made it illegal to remove a slave from England against his will.

There were slaves in mainland France, but the institution was never fully authorized there. However, slavery was vitally important in France's Caribbean possessions, especially Saint-Domingue.

The Lesser Antilles islands of Barbados, Antigua, Martinique and Guadeloupe were the first important slave societies of the Caribbean, switching to slavery by the end of the 16th century as their economies converted from tobacco to sugar production. By the middle of the 18th century, British Jamaica and French Saint-Domingue had become the largest and most brutal slave societies of the region, rivaling Brazil as a destination for enslaved Africans.

The first announcement from Whitehall in England that slaves would be totally freed by 1840 was made in 1833. In the meantime, slaves on plantations were expected to remain were they were and work as "apprentices" for the next six years. On 1st of August 1834, a unarmed group of mainly elderly negroes being addressed by the Governor at Government House about the new laws, began chanting: "Pas de six ans. Point de six ans" ("Not six years. No six years"), drowning out the voice of the Governor. Peaceful protests continued until a resolution to abolish apprenticeship was passed and de facto freedom was achieved. Full emancipation for all was finally legally granted ahead of schedule on 1st August, 1838, making Trinidad the first British colony with slaves to completely abolish slavery.

After British abolished slavery, they began to pressure other nations to do the same. France, too, abolished slavery, but by this point St. Domingue had already broken away to form the independent Republic of Haiti. French islands were limited to the Lesser Antilles.


So as you can see, even the British did not abolish slavery till 1833, THREE years, not thirty, before the game begins. And even then it was 1838 before it took place. Two years after the game begins. So even England should start as a slave holder in 1836.




Cheers, Thorgrimm

 

[ZhangWuJi]

Expanding on what Thorgrimm said but in a game context: Victoria is a simulation and the outcomes of a game are never what really happened. So what if in the game, the UK repealled their decree? Or even expanded the slave trade?

After researching modding and events creation, and based on the interest here for "what if scenarios", I figure I can try my hand at making an event for all countries. What do you guys think of these points:

1) Triggers when a government is elected(or at the beginning) if they hold residence or limited citizenship beliefs.
2) Also triggered if slavery = no that way USA, Brazil, Texas, Denmark dont get the event at the start.
3) Using the convert_pop action, make it possible to convert "cultural_minority" to slaves. Can also give a % of the POPs to be converted. Was thinking multiple options like 100%, 50%, 30% etc. Of course this would have to be wisely chosen... a UK choosing 100% would have almost 100% of Quebec and India converted to slaves. Maybe 80% max?
4) Maybe a BB and/or gold penelty. Rounding up the minority is bound to cost money and I'm sure at a time when more people were becoming free from serfdom and monarchies, this would anger a majority of countries a bit.
5) Rise consciousness for liberals and socialists?
6) Rise the cultural minority emigration rate to simulate the ones who remain free not wanting to be there anymore and the "underground Railroad" factor.
7) Add a 2nd event for eliminating slavery. Have to exclude the countries that start with slaves so as to not interfere with their event chains. Trigger when a "full citizenship" gov't is elected. Of course this might only be for the AI. I mean if you go through the trouble of enacting slavery with the pros and cons, why would you repeal it, unless you want to role play.

What do you think? Any other modable factor that has escaped me?

 

[ZhangWuJi]

Here is my 3rd attempt and the 1st that did what I want:


event = {
id = 280000
random = no
trigger = {
slavery = no
minorities = yes
policy = { country = 0 type = limited_citizenship }
OR = {
policy = { country = 0 type = residence }
}
}
name = "Slavery?"
desc = "Shall we enact slavery?"
picture = slavery
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1836 }
offset = 1
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1920 }


action_a = {
Name = "Enslave all we can find!! - 50%"
ai_chance = 5
command = { type = convert_pop_type which = cultural_minority value = slaves where = 0 when = 50 }
command = { type = minority_emigration value = 3 }
command = { type = badboy value = 3 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = liberal value = 3 where = 0 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = socialist value = 3 where = 0 }
command = { type = set_slavery value = yes }
command = { type = treasury value = -50000 }
}


action_b = {
Name = "Enslave the Poor Minorities - 30%"
ai_chance = 15
command = { type = convert_pop_type which = cultural_minority value = slaves where = 0 when = 30 }
command = { type = minority_emigration value = 2 }
command = { type = badboy value = 2 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = liberal value = 2 where = 0 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = socialist value = 2 where = 0 }
command = { type = set_slavery value = yes }
command = { type = treasury value = -30000 }
}


action_c = {
Name = "Enslave the Uneducated Minorities - 15%"
ai_chance = 20
command = { type = convert_pop_type which = cultural_minority value = slaves where = 0 when = 15 }
command = { type = minority_emigration value = 1 }
command = { type = badboy value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = liberal value = 1 where = 0 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = socialist value = 1 where = 0 }
command = { type = set_slavery value = yes }
command = { type = treasury value = -10000 }
}

action_d = {
Name = "Nah!"
ai_chance = 60
command = { type = badboy value = -1 }
command = { type = hold_election }
command = { type = set_slavery value = no }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = cultural_minority value = -2 where = 0 }
command = { type = pop_consciousness which = religious_minority value = -2 where = 0 }
command = { type = pop_dominant_issue which = cultural_majority value = full_citizenship where = 0 }
}
}

 

[ZhangWuJi]

Note:
1) I removed the taking of religious_minorities as slaves. Tested it on my 1st attempt as UK and let's say the Irish Catholics, as well as some others, didn't have any free people left. I left the religious minority bonus for saying "Nah" though... I'm sure they would still appreciate a country not wanting slavery.
2) In the 4th choice (Nah) I also called an election and made full citizenship a dominant issue around the country for the majority. So if the country has a party with that issue they get a bigger chance of getting elected.
3) Did add an emigration bonus as a way of implementing escaping slaves and the minorities trying to leave the country out of fear even if not enslaved.
4) Lowered the max to 50% or the amount of slaves in india for example was ridiculous and many were unable to be assigned to work. 50% seemed a good number when tested.

5) Tested as UK: the Anglo-Canadians were also enslaved, but not the British. On the gov't overview side panel it lists "British, Anglo-Canadian" as the cultures. Why then are the Anglo-Canadians classified as a cultural minority?

 

[EUnderhill]

Note:
1) I removed the taking of religious_minorities as slaves. Tested it on my 1st attempt as UK and let's say the Irish Catholics, as well as some others, didn't have any free people left. I left the religious minority bonus for saying "Nah" though... I'm sure they would still appreciate a country not wanting slavery.
2) In the 4th choice (Nah) I also called an election and made full citizenship a dominant issue around the country for the majority. So if the country has a party with that issue they get a bigger chance of getting elected.
3) Did add an emigration bonus as a way of implementing escaping slaves and the minorities trying to leave the country out of fear even if not enslaved.
4) Lowered the max to 50% or the amount of slaves in india for example was ridiculous and many were unable to be assigned to work. 50% seemed a good number when tested.

5) Tested as UK: the Anglo-Canadians were also enslaved, but not the British. On the gov't overview side panel it lists "British, Anglo-Canadian" as the cultures. Why then are the Anglo-Canadians classified as a cultural minority?

Probably every culture after the first listed is considered a minority; try reversing them in the setup file and see if British and not Anglo-Canadians are enslaved.

 

[ZhangWuJi]

Probably every culture after the first listed is considered a minority; try reversing them in the setup file and see if British and not Anglo-Canadians are enslaved.

Ya you are right
Just swaped them and the British were enslaved while the Anglo-Canadians were not.

 

[Novea]

Did you try turning all your pops into slaves?

 

[ZhangWuJi]

Did you try turning all your pops into slaves?

No, I used the command for "cultural_minority". But I did try 100% for minorities and that worked. Unfortunately it would effect game balance. Maybe for a smaller country with a smaller minority population it would work but for countries like the UK we are talking about all of Canada and India being converted.

Still trying to figure out a way to go around turning secondary state cultures into slaves....Anglo-Canadians for example as the UK. Sure they are a cultural minority but they are also an accepted state culture. So 50% was about as high that was possible to not screw the provinces with high POPs, like China or India. Actually as China might have to lower the % since starting in 1836 some southern provinces have over 200 POPs and Nanfengren would be a secondary state culture and for some reason still be classified as a minority

Though its looking more likely that I would have to make seperate events for China, UK etc and leave the above event for the smaller non-colonizing countries. Any advice?

 

[ZhangWuJi]

I am starting to think that 50% might be too high. This problem is really bothering me.

A small country with a small minority could have 100% of the minority turned to slaves and it wouldnt effect balance. But UK or China would be ridiculous. On the other hand the 5-10% needed for China (because secondary cultures are also enslaved) would be too small for most other nations for the event to even make a difference.

So I'm left with 2 choices that I can see:
1) Make the event with 100%, 40%, 10% and 0% options to allow the player to choose based on which country they are playing.
2) Write seperate events for the majors and leave a generic event for minors.

Of course this would be a non-issue if there was a way to prevent the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc state cultures from being enslaved.

Hoping someone knows how to achieve this or has any ideas or suggestions to balance this event out?

 

[unmerged(2833)]

And I was under the general impression that slaves were generally a bad deal, especially when that part of your population isnt paying taxes.

Well, they don't get much of income, so income is distributed to other POPs, making them richer.

And slaves don't generate other costs, like education, crime fighting, social reforms, etc. Main disadvantage is slowed research and inability to convert them.

 

[jordarkelf]

It should not be possible to convert any Europeans (and I include New World colonials here) to slavery: it was the "White Man's Burden" that legitimized slavery, so only the undeveloped nations should be able to provide slaves. This limits it to Africa and parts of Asia. New World Indians were of course also enslaved, but far less than Africans were.
I highly doubt any European nation would accept another nation having European slaves. White Slavery was a taboo even among slavers. Unless of course you are going to equate the labour contracts by which the English subjugated the Irish, or the Russian elite their subjects with slavery (which I would not do).

Maybe a civilized Japan would be able to have European slaves though.