Is it me or are the Spanish National Ideas underwhelming?

[Hootieleece]

I am playing a game as Castile into Spain to play the Colonial Game to test out the 1.33beta.

I formed Spain diplomatically and had the chance to change NI's and did so, but I think the new NI's are worse than the Castilian ones which I think were based on "Historical" Spain in the first place.

What does the forum think of the Spanish Ideas?

 

[Wureen]

• 15% Morale or Armies is only second to France
• +1 Artillery Fire is equal to ~+100% Combat Ability until Tech 12 then over the techs declines to "only" ~12% CA with tech 32, which is still more than Smolensk gets.
• The Papal Influence helps running all curia bonuses permanently, which is a very nice buff to the county
• The Colonist is super nice to have
• Envoy Travel time is nice to have and can be stacked with Influence and Exploration ideas for a total of ~-75% (this affects colonists).
• 5% Discipline is super.
• +1 Presige is meh
• +1 Dip Policy is situational

All in all I would say Spains ideas are rather far from underwhelming if not outright OP!

 

[I like wars and maps]

Will we soon get "Is Mughals mission tree, ideas and government too weak?" threads too?

 

[klingonadmiral]

All in all I would say Spains ideas are rather far from underwhelming if not outright OP!

You'd in fact be hard pressed to find countries with more potent military ideas than Spain. Prussia and Poland are the only ones, and non-Polish Prussia starts don't have the economic base of Spain.

 

[Twoflower]

Since this thread was not only about the Spanish ideas in a vacuum, but also in direct comparison to the Castilian (and thus also about whether it is good to switch ideas when forming Spain), let's compare the Castilian and Spanish ideas directly:

• +15% morale of armies, +1 colonist and the special ability to fabricate claims in all overseas provinces are in both idea sets.
• Castile has
  -+5 marine force limit -> at best nice to have in order to be able to use sailors for manpower
  - -1% army tradition decay -> weak
  - +1 missionary and +2 missionary strength -> decent but almost overkill if you take religious ideas
  - +10 production efficiency -> decent
  - +1 diplomatic reputation -> good
  - +33% heir chance -> quite worthless, even with disinheriting
  - +10 % institution spread -> weak
  - -0,05 monthly autonomy change -> relatively weak
  - 25 global settler increase -> decent
• Spain has
  - 1 artillery fire awesome
  - 2 yearly papal influence very good
  - +25 % naval force limit decent
  - 10 % heavy ship combat ability decent
  - +1 Naval leader maneuver ok
  - +15 global tariffs rather underwhelming
  - -33% envoy travel time quite worthless
  - +1 diplomatic possible policies situational
  - +1 prestige weak
  - +5 discipline fantastic

The +5 discipline and +1 artillery fire give Spain a lot more of a military punch. In multiplayer, I think that alone makes the idea switch almost a no-brainer, and also in singleplayer, those two military bonuses are probably more useful than anything in Castile's set (which isn't that bad either).

 

[bokorthedust]

Will we soon get "Is Mughals mission tree, ideas and government too weak?" threads too?

You get a powercreep and you get a powercreep and you get a powercreep

 

[Nostalgium]

- -33% envoy travel time quite worthless

This is only true if you mainly conduct your diplomacy in Europe. Once you start doing multiple war declarations and colonies Asia, that travel time really starts adding up. I'd probably rank it above or on par with +1 Prestige, because at the time you get that prestige bonus, chances are you're resting at 80-100 from other factors as Spain.

 

[Twoflower]

This is only true if you mainly conduct your diplomacy in Europe. Once you start doing multiple war declarations and colonies Asia, that travel time really starts adding up. I'd probably rank it above or on par with +1 Prestige, because at the time you get that prestige bonus, chances are you're resting at 80-100 from other factors as Spain.

Ok, worthless was too harsh, it does have a certain use. It is still, as you said, on par with +1 prestige, and thus not a particularly strong idea.

 

[Nostalgium]

Agreed. Unless you lean into it for diplomacy-by-email, it's still a fairly weak idea. Still something I'd have over, IDK, 10% Light Ship combat ability.

 

[Hootieleece]

• 15% Morale or Armies is only second to France
• +1 Artillery Fire is equal to ~+100% Combat Ability until Tech 12 then over the techs declines to "only" ~12% CA, which is still more than Smolensk gets.
• The Papal Influence helps running all curia bonuses permanently, which is a very nice buff to the county
• The Colonist is super nice to have
• Envoy Travel time is nice to have and can be stacked with Influence and Exploration ideas for a total of ~-75% (this affects colonists).
• 5% Discipline is super.
• +1 Presige is meh
• +1 Dip Policy is situational

All in all I would say Spains ideas are rather far from underwhelming if not outright OP!

Since this thread was not only about the Spanish ideas in a vacuum, but also in direct comparison to the Castilian (and thus also about whether it is good to switch ideas when forming Spain), let's compare the Castilian and Spanish ideas directly:

• +15% morale of armies, +1 colonist and the special ability to fabricate claims in all overseas provinces are in both idea sets.
• Castile has
  -+5 marine force limit -> at best nice to have in order to be able to use sailors for manpower
  - -1% army tradition decay -> weak
  - +1 missionary and +2 missionary strength -> decent but almost overkill if you take religious ideas
  - +10 production efficiency -> decent
  - +1 diplomatic reputation -> good
  - +33% heir chance -> quite worthless, even with disinheriting
  - +10 % institution spread -> weak
  - -0,05 monthly autonomy change -> relatively weak
  - 25 global settler increase -> decent
• Spain has
  - 1 artillery fire awesome
  - 2 yearly papal influence very good
  - +25 % naval force limit decent
  - 10 % heavy ship combat ability decent
  - +1 Naval leader maneuver ok
  - +15 global tariffs rather underwhelming
  - -33% envoy travel time quite worthless
  - +1 diplomatic possible policies situational
  - +1 prestige weak
  - +5 discipline fantastic

The +5 discipline and +1 artillery fire give Spain a lot more of a military punch. In multiplayer, I think that alone makes the idea switch almost a no-brainer, and also in singleplayer, those two military bonuses are probably more useful than anything in Castile's set (which isn't that bad either).

Unless you have played Castile and changed to Spain you wouldn't know that these are the UPDATED Spanish Ideas (1.33beta):
Devout Catholicism: +2 Papal Influence
Inter Catera: +1 Colonist
Treasure Fleet: Naval Force Limit +25%
Spanish Armada: +10% Heavy Ship combat Modifier
+1 Naval Leader Maneuver pip
Casa de Contratacion: +15% Global Tariffs
-33% Envoy Travel Times
Reign in the Cortes: +1 Diplomatic Policy
Siglo de Oro: +1 Prestige

Spanish Ideas: +15% Morale
+1 Artillery
Finsher: +5% Discipline

As you can see they probably worse than the Castilian Ideas, which is why I made this thread.

 

[Hootieleece]

Thanks for letting me see the light......

 

[holyvigil]

Seems like they are stronger now than before.

Castilian ideas and original set up is the best nation for one faith. Spanish are better for war.

 

[Katrex]

it's you im afraid.

I an vaguely understand why you feel that. But it important to understand just how insanely good 15 morale 5 disc and 1 arty fire. Those could be the only 3 ideas they had and they would still be top 5 national ideas in the game.

On top of that they also have a competitive navy with 25% fl, 10 heavy ship combat ability, 1 meneuver (10% naval combat width) and perhaps you are unaware but +1 arty fire works like 5% discipline for ships.

So they have both one of the best militaries and navies in the game. And some other bonuses.

 

[Sidolowka]

UPDATED

Updated how? The Spanish idea set hasn't been touched in years. (Which only goes to show how good it is even after all this powercreep)

Castille did have its 5% Marines buffed to 25% in the beta, but that still doesn't really tip the scales in their favour too much, considering how niche Marines are.

The only feasible reason why I think anyone would keep Castilian ideas over the Spanish ones would be if they were going for a One Faith.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I an vaguely understand why you feel that. But it important to understand just how insanely good 15 morale 5 disc and 1 arty fire. Those could be the only 3 ideas they had and they would still be top 5 national ideas in the game.

Top 5 for what, precisely?

That's always the question.

 

[Hootieleece]

Top 5 for what, precisely?

That's always the question.

My guess is winning battles and wars would be my guess.

Not that I am an expert which is why I started this thread, I am actually just coming back after playing during Emperor.

I am probably considered a "filthy casual" by the MP crowd, but this was my first time switching NI's and had questions.

 

[heliostellar]

Thanks for letting me see the light......

Although people obviously don't agree with your conclusion, there's some useful drill downs on some of the ideas that I hope you've found helpful.

 

[iClipse]

My only pet peeve with it, is that 'Spanish Inquisition' is a Castillian idea, and not a Spanish one. The +1 missionary and +2 strength is also vastly better than the +2 papal influence.

 

[Twoflower]

My only pet peeve with it, is that 'Spanish Inquisition' is a Castillian idea, and not a Spanish one. The +1 missionary and +2 strength is also vastly better than the +2 papal influence

My main pet peeve is "Nueva Planta" being a Castilian idea. The Decretos de Nueva Planta after the War of Spanish Succession, by revoking the privileges of the kingdoms of the crown of Aragon, were actually the decisive legal step in turning Spain from a union of kingdoms into a unitary state.
It could be argued that these decrees could in EU4 game terms be represented as Castile "integrating" Aragon and "tag-switching" to Spain. It is absolutely baffling how the documents that ended the separate legal identity of the kingdoms are a "Castilian" and not a "Spanish" idea.
This is obviously not a point relating to gameplay

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

It's just you