Is it just me or are the Ottomans completely insane in 1.33?

[Nostalgium]

In 1.33 moral, discipline and pips are no more

Only numbers matter and so Ottoz can rule even when their unit's pips start to collapse

I keep seeing people say this, but old quality and Space Marine builds still absolutely melt face from your second or third completed MIL group onwards. Numbers matter more, but they're hardly the be-all-end-all. I crushed a numerically superior Ottoman stack in the late 1500's just last week, and I hadn't even taken Offensive at that point, and it's not even the first time. Just the most recent on this patch.

Trickle feeding reinforcements is a bit more annoying this patch, as battles generally last a bit longer, but this has always been a problem in EU4, and the new paradigm didn't increase its viability by very much more. Quality builds are still very viable, and still dominate battles and can win wars if you can sustain them - it just takes a bit more than a +10% Morale advisor and 5% Disc in ideas to get there.

 

[agonistes]

Like getting stuck in with the Ottomans ASAP, eh? I can respect that.

Well, its mostly because of Genoa. If Crimea remains independent, taking Genoa's provinces can get really annoying. As Muscovy, war with Otto is pretty much inevitable, and crimean is easy warscore. But an hre genoa backed by an austrian-castille alliance will set you back years just marching troops around. I'd rather have otto eat genoa.

 

[Nostalgium]

Well, its mostly because of Genoa. If Crimea remains independent, taking Genoa's provinces can get really annoying. As Muscovy, war with Otto is pretty much inevitable, and crimean is easy warscore. But an hre genoa backed by an austrian-castille alliance will set you back years just marching troops around. I'd rather have otto eat genoa.

I've found that Genoa really, REALLY likes guaranteeing Theodoro, though, so what I usually do is invade Theodoro and take Genoa's provinces via that deal. Still requires marching all the way to Italy, but what can you do.

 

[AvengedK1ng]

In 1.33 moral, discipline and pips are no more

Only numbers matter and so Ottoz can rule even when their unit's pips start to collapse

Don't reserves take more morale damage now?

But examples of Englad or Delhi further proves the point that the Ottomans shouldn't have cores on beyliks. I'm not saying that such nations should have more cores and gave Timurids as an example of nation that in reality could have more than it starts with if the Ottomans get more.

Cores for beyliks wouldn't be the be all and end all, as it didnt change much back when ottos did have cores there, however replaces mission tree claims and pus with cores would radically alter game balance

And I have no idea why you think Austria should have cores on Bohemia or Hungary. When before 1444 Austria owned their land?

PU? Just like England France was PU

 

[agonistes]

I've found that Genoa really, REALLY likes guaranteeing Theodoro, though, so what I usually do is invade Theodoro and take Genoa's provinces via that deal. Still requires marching all the way to Italy, but what can you do.

I don't think I've ever seen this! I'll keep my eyes peeled.

 

[necro84]

PU? Just like England France was PU

And why would 2 years of union between 1437 and 1439 give Austria cores on Bohemia or Hungary? Does Aragon have cores on Naples, Burgundy on its junior partners and others? I wouldn't mind if Austria and Poland started with the restoration of union CB on Hungary valid for a few years.

 

[hayseed]

I don’t find them a problem and honestly, never have. If you are playing in that part of the world, the strategy is to block them from major expansion. Allying one of the nations on their eastern border will deter Otto expansion east. Ally with Austria or Hungary will slow Otto expansion into Balkans. Fight multiple wars with allies (Spain, Austria, Hungary, Mamelukes, etc) pillage, take money, take forts, build up your allies. It’s never going to be a rollover but Otto never gets the momentum to dominate the space. In my current game as Mamelukes (1.33 with all DLC) it’s 1600 and Otto is a shadow of its former self. Actually, that wasn’t my intention, because I wanted to keep them as a buffer, but my Ally Austria just kept Starting wars with them until Otto had all the belligerence of a small puppy. Actually I was pleasantly surprised to find that Otto had modern forts as technology advanced. My wars with them were challenging but winnable.

 

[durbal]

I don’t find them a problem and honestly, never have. If you are playing in that part of the world, the strategy is to block them from major expansion. Allying one of the nations on their eastern border will deter Otto expansion east. Ally with Austria or Hungary will slow Otto expansion into Balkans. Fight multiple wars with allies (Spain, Austria, Hungary, Mamelukes, etc) pillage, take money, take forts, build up your allies. It’s never going to be a rollover but Otto never gets the momentum to dominate the space. In my current game as Mamelukes (1.33 with all DLC) it’s 1600 and Otto is a shadow of its former self. Actually, that wasn’t my intention, because I wanted to keep them as a buffer, but my Ally Austria just kept Starting wars with them until Otto had all the belligerence of a small puppy. Actually I was pleasantly surprised to find that Otto had modern forts as technology advanced. My wars with them were challenging but winnable.

This is all categorically untrue. If you're playing as Mamluks, Muscovy, etc. and talking about how to stop the Ottomans then it's a non-issue since you can basically beat them in 1444 without any problems and it's so easy to outpace them. If you're instead not playing as a major and need to essentially race them to higher dev and hope they don't come after you it's a much bigger challenge. Allying AI Austria, Mamluks, etc. in my experience is a non-starter since they will just declare on your ally who will roll over and die. The only hope would be if something like a Poland-Austria alliance happens and you're also able to ally both so that they can't declare on one without bringing them all in, but due to the rival system that never happens.

Fighting them after they get their age ability is suicide. They will have 4+ cannons in every stack, every general will have 2+ siege pips and they will have +50% siege ability (15-day base siege ticks). Forts become paper.

 

[necro84]

If you're instead not playing as a major and need to essentially race them to higher dev and hope they don't come after you it's a much bigger challenge. Allying AI Austria, Mamluks, etc. in my experience is a non-starter since they will just declare on your ally who will roll over and die.

Your mistake is trying to fight the Ottomans. If you can ally the Mamluks usually you would be able to ally the Ottomans too and use this alliance to block their expansion. Vassalize two small nations like Epirus and Ramazan so Ottomans can't complete their missions and get more claims. Because nations are small negative modifier 'wants your provinces' is to small to break the alliance and without claims Ottomans expand much slower. From such position you can conquer Syria and Serbia to increase your strength (you can call Ottomans and they will help) and without previous missions owning such areas doesn't have any negative effect on relations. Ottomans would be stuck at 500-600 dev.

Just look how an alliance with AQQ sometimes stops the Ottomans and do similar thing.

 

[durbal]

Your mistake is trying to fight the Ottomans. If you can ally the Mamluks usually you would be able to ally the Ottomans too and use this alliance to block their expansion. Vassalize two small nations like Epirus and Ramazan so Ottomans can't complete their missions and get more claims. Because nations are small negative modifier 'wants your provinces' is to small to break the alliance and without claims Ottomans expand much slower. From such position you can conquer Syria and Serbia to increase your strength (you can call Ottomans and they will help) and without previous missions owning such areas doesn't have any negative effect on relations. Ottomans would be stuck at 500-600 dev.

Just look how an alliance with AQQ sometimes stops the Ottomans and do similar thing.

Cool. I'm talking about not cheesing the AI and doing stuff like allying the Ottomans (which I mentioned in my first post). Also, if you're allying the Ottomans there's a very tiny chance that you can ally Mamluks too since they're rivals.

This thread isn't about exploiting the diplomatic AI to make them never expand, it's not about no-CBing Byzantium to stop them from becoming an empire, etc. It's about how absolutely insane their stats are to the point that counterplay largely doesn't exist when fighting them for the first century and a half at least. I've never seen them so comically strong before, and it's like the AI and warfare changes made them into a proper beast, but then years of goofy buffs to get them to be able to grow somewhat historically on top of all that have put them so far over the top that they are just walking all over majors and barely touching their manpower pool.

 

[delusonalism_]

ive played two 1.33 games, one as hungary so directly bordering ottomans (i did not cheese them early - first war against them was not until 1550)

they seem at about the mark as to where they were in previous patches to me. taking mamluks at about the same time as they usually do, expanding to about the same borders they usually do so, id never seen them take defensive as an idea group before this patch so theres that. the only thing i dislike about current ottomans is the crimea event which has been in the game long before 1.33

does anyone have a decent sample size of how ottomans are tracking this patch compared to at the same stage in previous patches? the sentiment in this thread seems to be quite popular but im not seeing it in my own games

 

[FrogCrusher]

Some people are far from the truth when saying 15 days siege tick. It is far less than that:

3 day siege phase for Ottos, really?

First, to clarify, it is not a rant thread nor a complain. I just had a game where Ottos stacks all the possible modifier for siege ability so soon in the game: era bonus, offensive and innovative/offensive policy. As the game is in 1.24 (it...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[AvengedK1ng]

Some people are far from the truth when saying 15 days siege tick. It is far less than that:

3 day siege phase for Ottos, really?

First, to clarify, it is not a rant thread nor a complain. I just had a game where Ottos stacks all the possible modifier for siege ability so soon in the game: era bonus, offensive and innovative/offensive policy. As the game is in 1.24 (it...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Offensive innovative means no quality for now at least

 

[currylambchop]

I am struggling to believe this is a serious post. I apologise if you are being serious, it's just hard to believe.

1) The Burgundian Inheritance is equally broken, no one country should get all of Burgundy. I've said that before.

2) This is the one I really struggle to take seriously given I am fairly sure everyone here has seen the PLC lose repeatedly to the Ottomans especially if the Ottomans get that awful Crimea event.

3) Iberian Wedding is necessary to ensure Castile does not get overpowered by France or England. I still see Castile lose to the North Africans not too rarely. Also sometimes the Iberian Wedding doesn't happen at all.

4) I don't know too much about the Incan events.

5) Really? You're comparing getting Danzig to annexing some of the highest development land in the whole game?

6) Because in 1444 the TImurids vassals are actually part of the Timurids realm?

what about Hundred Years’ War where england literally gets whole France for free?

 

[currylambchop]

This is all categorically untrue. If you're playing as Mamluks, Muscovy, etc. and talking about how to stop the Ottomans then it's a non-issue since you can basically beat them in 1444 without any problems and it's so easy to outpace them. If you're instead not playing as a major and need to essentially race them to higher dev and hope they don't come after you it's a much bigger challenge. Allying AI Austria, Mamluks, etc. in my experience is a non-starter since they will just declare on your ally who will roll over and die. The only hope would be if something like a Poland-Austria alliance happens and you're also able to ally both so that they can't declare on one without bringing them all in, but due to the rival system that never happens.

Fighting them after they get their age ability is suicide. They will have 4+ cannons in every stack, every general will have 2+ siege pips and they will have +50% siege ability (15-day base siege ticks). Forts become paper.

meanwhile me beating the ottomans as the Papal States (infamously crap military ideas) in 1550 and only owning most of Italy

 

[yyrkroon]

Burgundian inheritance
Jagellion
Iberian wedding
Incan events
Danzig revolt
Timurids starting with cores everywhere

<sarcastico> Well, yeah, but most of those benefit countries we like and like to play < / sarcastico>

 

[durbal]

meanwhile me beating the ottomans as the Papal States (infamously crap military ideas) in 1550 and only owning most of Italy

Papal States isn't exactly a tough start and you don't have to do anything to avoid the Ottomans before 1550 so not sure how this is relevant.

 

[AvengedK1ng]

Papal States isn't exactly a tough start and you don't have to do anything to avoid the Ottomans before 1550 so not sure how this is relevant.

If epirus allies naples then yeah you do need to face ottos pre 1550

 

[durbal]

If epirus allies naples then yeah you do need to face ottos pre 1550

Not only does that pretty much never happen but I've never seen them mark anything in Italy as provinces of interest so they don't ever take it anyway. And even so, they won't be coming after further Italian states anyway since they're pretty much scripted to go after their mission claims.

 

[Ferdinand_Bardamu]

what about Hundred Years’ War where england literally gets whole France for free?

In 4,000 game time I've never seen England win the 100 Years War.