Is it just me or are the Ottomans completely insane in 1.33?

[Rawme]

Still really struggle to understand people's obsession with the Ottomans reaching their historical borders.

France never reach the borders of modern France because:

1) They're scared of attacking the HRE.
2) The Burgundian Inheritance seldom goes their way.
3) They ally Provence.
4) They can have good relations with Brittany.
5) Sometimes England will pull as Castile alliance.

And this is all deemed proper and fair.

Meanwhile the Ottomans with infinite manpower, mana points and unrest reduction don't conquer some low development provinces in North Africa and people complain.

Let's just take it that within EU4's capabilities it's impossible for countries to expand in a truly accurate way, like @Manwe_Sulimo pointed out. Britain can't do naval landings in India, and I don't think any of us trust the AI to purchase a trade company and use Mercs to conquer Bengal whilst managing an economy.

Therefore we just have to look at the overall power that the country has, not whether they've conquered some 3 dev Ibadi province in North Africa.

Are the Ottomans power over the course of the game proportional and creating some form of game balance? I think not. In the majority of games the Ottomans are an unrivalled beast no coalition or alliance network can defend against until the player comes along. Some people like this for memes but I don't.

I think if this conversation (about game balance in general, not specific to the Ottomans) is ever going to be productive we have to stop looking at nations borders and look at their overall power as an AI. Mana generation, manpower, pips, income, diplomacy and other inbuilt factors such as national ideas and disaster are what you look at.

From a player perspective, the Ottomans as an end-game tag with no Admin Efficiency or Diplomatic Annexation cost are OK but nothing special. The Mamluks are better just for their ability to tag switch.

From an AI perspective, the Ottomans are an absolute beast and if they take Quantity ideas they're unplayable for the AI.

I would seriously stop complaining about this and concede everything else if Paradox did just two things.

1) Stop the Crimea event. For all this talk of historical borders, the Ottomans are far too keen to expand into Ruthenia ruining the formation of the PLC and sometimes even Russia. Two countries that should pose an eventual threat to them.

2) Ban the Ottomans taking Quantity ideas. You could say the same for Russia, the difference is Muscovy/Russia will never be rich enough to field 250k men in 1520. The Ottomans are.

Crimea wasn't even a vassal too, right? Im pretty sure they were a tributary

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

Crimea wasn't even a vassal too, right? Im pretty sure they were a tributary

They were probably more akin to a mixture of march and Tributary. Their relationship is difficult model in the game.

They could conduct somewhat independent diplomacy. They still supported the Ottoman armies with cavalry (sometimes). There might have been some kind of tribute not sure.

 

[themrspartan]

They were probably more akin to a mixture of march and Tributary. Their relationship is difficult model in the game.

They could conduct somewhat independent diplomacy. They still supported the Ottoman armies with cavalry (sometimes). There might have been some kind of tribute not sure.

Sounds like an alliance to me.

 

[Elu Thingol]

Sounds like an alliance to me.

Well, it was. The problem is the EU4's way of showing alliances is to black/white.

 

[currylambchop]

People still don't get it.

I think most of us know how to beat the Ottomans. We don't need to be told 'the time to attack them is early or when their pips drop off in mil tech'. It isn't about difficulty or strategy, please focus on the issue at hand.

The issue is that with no player intervention the Ottomans are always the end-game boss. They dismantle everyone in their sights and grow to levels completely out of proportion to the rest of the game. Don't look at whether they annex as much as North Africa as they historically did. Look at their forcelimit, manpower and blobbing capabilities in the 1700s compared to other countries, especially compared to countries who in this century were able to beat them or at least hold their own against them.

It's frankly just boring. It offers no variety for late-game play because you know what the story will be. I'd kill to fight a huge colonial Britain that's conquered India or a Russia that's entered half of China, but that never happens, it's always the Ottomans.

Also I wish EU4 players would pick. Because half the time the argument is 'Well it's what happened in history' and the other half it's 'Well this game doesn't have to be historically accurate it's an alternate history game'.

If this game is supposed to mimic really history, the Ottomans need an inbuilt much heavier decline towards the late game.

If this game is alternate history, then the Ottomans shouldn't always be the end-game boss. Them failing to the Mamluks should be distinct possibility.

I see Spain and Britain and even Shun being an Endboss way more than Ottomans. Spain usually is far above Ottomans in terms of dev, sometimes having twice their dev, and also with much larger army. Maybe you’re just remembering the times Ottoman dominated and not all the other times.

EDIT: also I forgot, reason ottomans get destroyed is because Poland eats them alive and owns the entire Russia and eastern and Central Europe every single game.

 

[Atey]

Why? Matthias Corvinus got the throne irl and was able to conquer in both Austria and Bohemia

Man, you should really do a refresh on your Bohemian history.

Between the claim that Austria should have cores on all of Bohemia because a Habsburg was once elected a Bohemian king and your claim that Mathias Corvinus not only was the king of Bohemia (he was basically an anti-king, it was an aspirational title… he was elected a king in Moravia after dishonoring his deal with king George who could have just crushed him before at Vilemov) but that he conquered Bohemia? Bohemia? I would love to read the kind of books that contain this wealth of knowledge.