is innovative better than economic ideas for france?

[Beagá]

Ok, Innovative is good. The benefits of having high Prestige and Army Tradition are often overlooked. Let's see:

Better than the bonus provided by other specific idea groups. The -5% Tech cost saves you between (for 28 techs, given you have the first 4 already):

Base cost = 600*0.05*28*3 = 2520 mon. points.

Plus the advisor costs. A level 3 advisor costs 5 times more than a level 1 one. With a 25 % reduction, he will only cost 3.75x more.

If you aren´t floating at 90 prestige almost all the time you´re doing something very wrong.

The army tradition is very nice however, I agree. On the other hand, Economy does allow to pay all those level 3 advisors and still have plenty of money left, so the -25% advisor cost is actually a pathetic bonus for France.

 

[yerm]

If you're looking to do military tech timing, the answer is in military ideas, not innovative ^_^. Simply taking 3 ideas in a milgroup with mil focus is already more discount than innovative and it stacks the same way on top of adding shock, fire, morale, or combat ability. In single player, the tech for this is undoubtedly aristocratic, especially for the tech 12 timing you're talking about but even sooner, because you get -24% to military tech cost from that one group if you complete it. Innovative is much better for sustaining built up AT than it is for tech timing attacks.

Why not both? You can grab aristocratic too. In fact, that's kinda the point behind my argument that stacking multiple bonuses together is a good thing. You could grab aristo 2nd policy and still do everything I said; it's probably one of the best ways to do it in fact (although I can't fathom skipping dip trees as France, so this would maybe be for someone else!)

Also, just to be devil's advocate, in the short term buying 7 policies into a mil tree costs a bit more mil points than buying policies in an admin group, if you're trying to stockpile mil points and jump ahead in mil tech...

 

[ChildeR]

The army tradition is very nice however, I agree. On the other hand, Economy does allow to pay all those level 3 advisors and still have plenty of money left, so the -25% advisor cost is actually a pathetic bonus for France.

Even with neither France can afford level 3 advisors around the time you've completed the first idea group.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Why not both? You can grab aristocratic too. In fact, that's kinda the point behind my argument that stacking multiple bonuses together is a good thing. You could grab aristo 2nd policy and still do everything I said; it's probably one of the best ways to do it in fact (although I can't fathom skipping dip trees as France, so this would maybe be for someone else!)

Also, just to be devil's advocate, in the short term buying 7 policies into a mil tree costs a bit more mil points than buying policies in an admin group, if you're trying to stockpile mil points and jump ahead in mil tech...

You only dump points in as you get near 900, are declared on (take ahead if next tech is a new unit, otherwise just take on dow) or are way ahead in tech of course. The advantage of aristo or dip ideas sooner is that you can just put ADM into getting the 2nd group too. With NF this is less significant but still significant, especially to western tech with decent rulers like France has.

This also assumes NF on mil just like you assumed NF on adm. This creates a several idea jump in progress absent other factors on its own, where 3 3 3 becomes 2 2 5 or 5 2 2. The difference in MIL between ADM focus and MIL focus is 1800 points across the first 50 years...enough for 4 ideas and still ahead of the ADM focus. Not only is your military tech ahead of innovative at that point in terms of cost reduction, you still have points on top of it. If you're talking about MIL timings, you NF military and take military ideas lol.

Granted, your ADM development is weakened in doing this, but when you're playing against people it's not as easy to spam expand, and military ideas matter very quickly.

 

[ikkiks]

Again:

Game is balanced for multiplayer, where conquest is not easy and you have to squeeze more from your provinces. Yes we all know that beating the AI on Normal becomes easy eventually. Go play on Hard then, see what happens.

And naturally any kind of bonus that is % based will suck for small countries, but 10% tax is a lot of extra money for France. You also vastly underestimate how good is having that extra Advisor.

Well, I never played multiplayer as a great power, so there's that. Unless you're playing a MP as great powers only preventing you from conquering anything, than any idea group that helps you conquer more and faster will be much better than a simple 10% tax income or 1 more advisor early game.

 

[User4035]

As it stands now, any idea group that ups the amount of money you gain isn't that great. 1.8 has tons of cash at start so it pretty much makes the game easy mode in the money department.

 

[richtman]

Innovative is awesome, usually my second pick for idea group. It has great economic advantages (hello -25% advisor cost), great technology advantages (hello -5% in all tech), great military advantages (hello -2 AT decay and -0,05 monthly WE). Its just an all around awesome idea group.

Economy is meh, as previous posters said, money is seldom the limiting factor to your progress.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Innovative is awesome, usually my second pick for idea group. It has great economic advantages (hello -25% advisor cost), great technology advantages (hello -5% in all tech), great military advantages (hello -2 AT decay and -0,05 monthly WE). Its just an all around awesome idea group.

Economy is meh, as previous posters said, money is seldom the limiting factor to your progress.

Nope, paying 400 ADM up-front for a gradual return of 30 monarch points per tech is not a "great technology advantage", it's a sub-par deal en route to Innovative's better bonuses. The 25% advisor cost is useful of course, but economic provide much more money than that through its tax, production, and -maintenance ideas.

Innovative's unique selling point is that it gives significant military oomph as an admin idea, with some subpar economic bonuses still there. To a decent sized empire, you get more money even from military groups like Quantity and Plutocratic. The main draw of innovative is its events, policies, and the -AT decay/-.05 WE. These things are junky in SP but potentially useful in MP.

 

[ChildeR]

The 25% advisor cost is useful of course, but economic provide much more money than that through its tax, production, and -maintenance ideas.

50 years into the game, assuming you have level 3 advisors, innovative saves 0.25*3*9*1.5 = 10.1 a month. The best economic can do is ~20% more effective income, but that's if you don't have trade income, don't have any other tax or production modifiers and use all your money on land maintenance. More likely it gives you 10-15% effective, with 10% likelier for France IMO. To make more than 10 ducats, you have to have nearly 100/month income already.

I don't think innovative is sub par in this sense at all. It's pretty close to economic, while you are still small enough for money to matter at all. Trade can be better, of course, if your position allows you to take full advantage.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

50 years into the game, assuming you have level 3 advisors, innovative saves 0.25*3*9*1.5 = 10.1 a month. The best economic can do is ~20% more effective income, but that's if you don't have trade income, don't have any other tax or production modifiers and use all your money on land maintenance. More likely it gives you 10-15% effective, with 10% likelier for France IMO. To make more than 10 ducats, you have to have nearly 100/month income already.

I don't think innovative is sub par in this sense at all. It's pretty close to economic, while you are still small enough for money to matter at all. Trade can be better, of course, if your position allows you to take full advantage.

You're assuming you can afford +3 advisors. France probably can, but not alongside a heavy military.

Comparing % values on effective income is inane. What we care about is how much more money is made, not whether it's x % of our income. If your tax base is 100, then 10% more tax gives you 10 more ducats. It doesn't matter what other modifiers you have. It's the same for the -advisor costs.

I admit for France innovative 1st is going to beat economic 1st, but that's sort of like a knife to the leg beating a knife to the eye in terms of opportunity cost. Realistically outside of a deadlocked MP game France shouldn't consider either of these, and even then innovative is not a good early pick; the variance in tradition can't cover what offensive gives for example when it comes to generals. It's a useful pick in a tight game where you can't just war all the time, but not 1st.

 

[DicRoNero]

The main draw of innovative is its events, policies, and the -AT decay/-.05 WE. These things are junky in SP but potentially useful in MP.

I'm not so sure about that; I personally consider policies coming with Innovative to be really great. Aristocracy, on the other hand, is just meh in this regard, while being quite good if measured separately.

 

[ChildeR]

You're assuming you can afford +3 advisors. France probably can, but not alongside a heavy military.

It can afford level 3 advisors and FL+ army as soon as it's won the HYW, unified some vassals and built a trade fleet.

Comparing % values on effective income is inane. What we care about is how much more money is made, not whether it's x % of our income. If your tax base is 100, then 10% more tax gives you 10 more ducats. It doesn't matter what other modifiers you have. It's the same for the -advisor costs.

Percentages are the only way you can really put it into practice without assumptions, but sure. For you to get 10/month from economic you'd need ~300 BT (giving roughly a 50/month base of tax income + production) and a 50/month army. You have these if you have the whole French region most of Iberia, for example. Among other things that means you no longer care about money because of all the trade income you are making.

I admit for France innovative 1st is going to beat economic 1st, but that's sort of like a knife to the leg beating a knife to the eye in terms of opportunity cost. Realistically outside of a deadlocked MP game France shouldn't consider either of these, and even then innovative is not a good early pick; the variance in tradition can't cover what offensive gives for example when it comes to generals. It's a useful pick in a tight game where you can't just war all the time, but not 1st.

*shrug* I feel the first group is too early for a military idea, because you'd rather be ahead of time in tech. But depends on a million things and clearly people here have very different ideas of what to do as France. Personally I went with influence first in my only 1.8 France game so far.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm not so sure about that; I personally consider policies coming with Innovative to be really great. Aristocracy, on the other hand, is just meh in this regard, while being quite good if measured separately.

Runaway human nations in SP do not need 20% infantry combat or any such, and by the time you're seriously considering using policies, a SP nation is usually talking FL potential over 100 (or much more if you have a good start). Aristocracy's SP draw is that it hands you a diplomat, an extra general for split fronts, and lets you easily NF off military and keep up. That it gives your generals a +1 shock boost is a useful extra as well, but SP is the kind of thing where basic bait tactics and stack comp will carry any blobbed nation without issue, and where after the early game you can fearlessly run DotF for -WE and a little extra power.

If you happen to go republic it lets you get a good +RT policy along with diplomatic too, but that's more situational.

*shrug* I feel the first group is too early for a military idea, because you'd rather be ahead of time in tech. But depends on a million things and clearly people here have very different ideas of what to do as France. Personally I went with influence first in my only 1.8 France game so far.

Despite our discussion here, in SP I'd pick influence first also.

Percentages are the only way you can really put it into practice without assumptions, but sure. For you to get 10/month from economic you'd need ~300 BT (giving roughly a 50/month base of tax income + production) and a 50/month army. You have these if you have the whole French region most of Iberia, for example. Among other things that means you no longer care about money because of all the trade income you are making.

Is economic really THAT weak? I feel like it's stronger, but maybe that's due to its -cost on buildings too. As I said though, knife to the eye either way .

Economic is actually solid for nations like Mali, Songhai, and Aztec. Inflation takes a heavy toll on ADM for those nations (that or you walk into financial ruin idiocy event lol); at that point it's fronting a substantial ADM savings on top of the normal money benefits, and these regions of the world get good manufactories (trade companies and plantations) relatively early while not having the same kind of income as France by default. I would find it really hard to justify picking economic for anybody else, unless as someone else you quickly wander into the Mali region and snap up huge gold income early on.

 

[Artyom87]

you cant start with influence because your initial ruler is low in dip points. And you need dip points for all those vassals.

 

[Beagá]

50 years into the game, assuming you have level 3 advisors, innovative saves 0.25*3*9*1.5 = 10.1 a month. The best economic can do is ~20% more effective income, but that's if you don't have trade income, don't have any other tax or production modifiers and use all your money on land maintenance. More likely it gives you 10-15% effective, with 10% likelier for France IMO. To make more than 10 ducats, you have to have nearly 100/month income already.

I don't think innovative is sub par in this sense at all. It's pretty close to economic, while you are still small enough for money to matter at all. Trade can be better, of course, if your position allows you to take full advantage.

Higher production mean more trade value, and thus Economic can help in the trade game to an extent - IF you can control all your node.

Ultimatedly Economy DOES give you tons of cash. The problem is, long-term anything that saves MP is more valuable than gold. Usually by 1600.

 

[ChildeR]

Higher production mean more trade value, and thus Economic can help in the trade game to an extent - IF you can control all your node.

Economic gives production efficiency, which does not affect trade values.

 

[whelan]

thanks for the tips, had a good read into people's different methods and views on chosen ideas. reason for france is i enjoy the game but also i'm a slow learner and just learning the use of mercs and force limits. i gt hammered by a merc burgundy and brittany im ashamed to say.

 

[ecrurudesby]

thanks for the tips, had a good read into people's different methods and views on chosen ideas. reason for france is i enjoy the game but also i'm a slow learner and just learning the use of mercs and force limits. i gt hammered by a merc burgundy and brittany im ashamed to say.

France was my first Ironman nation, after playing two nations in easy mode. I got shreked by my neighbours and deleted the save.

 

[Artyom87]

thanks for the tips, had a good read into people's different methods and views on chosen ideas. reason for france is i enjoy the game but also i'm a slow learner and just learning the use of mercs and force limits. i gt hammered by a merc burgundy and brittany im ashamed to say.

peace-expand until you see an opportunity to strike at burgundy (that is, when its in war with austria). Immediatly hire mercs and go 10-20 over force limit. First focus on wiping out their stacks. DOnt worry about taking alot of loans. You need to beat up burgundy early. Later on they can be quiete a monster with their insane force-limits from admin and from their idea of +100% merc limit. You dont want burgundy in a coalition against you which is why you peace-expand at first. Also, pray for the burgundian event to fire

also, I would recommend Economics for SP. It allows you to more heavily invest into buildings and infrastructure, which in turn provide more and more payoff as the game goes on. War exhaustion is rarely a problem for me and the -2% decay barely makes any difference to tradition from my observations. If you play with normal AI, you could also pick administration and be more agressive early on. I seriously dont know why you wouldnt consider admin first. Its probably more gamey though...

Innovative does provide nice bonuses with the military ideas, which iam convinced for MP is boss. But these will come in quiete late. Therefore, I think innovative is a terrible first or second choice unless you plan on sieging an enemy for tens of years to rack up military tradition. Matter of fact I think anything is better than innovative for france as a first Idea given France's situation (this is assuming you play on Ironman/AI hard/ai bonus), even though that was my first pick this recent game

 

[FrigidSoul]

France was my first Ironman nation, after playing two nations in easy mode. I got shreked by my neighbours and deleted the save.

For all of its advantages, France is surprisingly tricky to play, and 1.8 made it trickier: France starts with a bunch of vassals eating up dip slots, and local autonomy means that integrating vassals makes you weaker in the short-mid term. Add that France is surrounded by great powers that hate its guts. Not exactly a hard start in the grand scheme of things, but there are easier and/or more straightforward starts available. On paper, France is the most powerful nation in the game, so the temptation is to go nuts crushing your neighbors from the first moment, but that's unlikely to end well unless you're an experienced player.