is innovative better than economic ideas for france?
- Thread starter whelan
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Nonsense. First of all, you're guaranteed to have at least 1 admin tech, but innovative 1st is iffy so you might have more. Same deal with military; skimping on that even briefly invites horrible things since tech 4 is tactics, so you're already over-representing the savings of innovative (especially given that the -tech cost is a bit later on, you'll never actually save 2520 in practice).
Those savings aren't that impressive even if we use your number. They amount to .186 monarch points in a given category per month, it's not like you're getting 2520 up front. While .186 points in each category per month isn't worthless, it's hardly the amazing bonus that innovative is often credited for having
. The advisor cost reduction is much, much stronger than that even if it only gives an extra +1 on points from advisors sooner. For as long as having that where you wouldn't have it otherwise lasts, it is over five times stronger than -5% cost.Of course, there are other idea groups that give you money sooner than the innovative finisher, and thus innovative's monarch point savings advantage is questionable. If you have a large-ish empire, there's a good chance you'd get more money from quantity lol. Quantity can also save more up-front monarch points than the -5% tech cost, and it's not even an ADM group. Innovative is made on its -decay and -WE war focus stuff and eventually on the -advisor costs, but it's not some super amazing group to rush first every time.
There are 32 techs * 3. You're guaranteed to have 4 techs researched in each group by the time you get to the -5% idea. This thread deals with the 1st idea group. Thus 28...
Plus there are the benefits of being ahead of time in Admin and Diplo techs, and those give you moniez.
You don't get the bonuses for being ahead in time, you get them if you will get ahead of time penalty for next tech.
I was kidding you know. Versailles is like St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, a building which should be mandatory just for the sake of it
There are 32 techs * 3. You're guaranteed to have 4 techs researched in each group by the time you get to the -5% idea. This thread deals with the 1st idea group. Thus 28...
Plus there are the benefits of being ahead of time in Admin and Diplo techs, and those give you moniez.
You need 1000's of ADM to complete enough ideas, plus another ~600 to just get ADM 4. In that timeframe, like heck you're not going to be at least mil 5, if not more. I'm not sure you'd want to sit on 999 DIP either, though maybe you can spend that on something other than tech if "saving" 30 is important to you.
The benefits for being "ahead of time" = current. You get those benefits as long as the *next* tech is ahead of years. You could never get a tech ahead of years and still enjoy those benefits the entire game, if you researched a tech on each January the penalty disappears, but don't let the mechanic function get in the way
^_^.
France can easily hit the 3rd idea while tech is at 4/3/4 or 4/3/5. Those numbers are fine for innovative first. I'd assume you're focused admin and giving spoils to vassals to core for you if you go admin idea first. Tech reduction also has opportunity advantages. Being able to grab a mil tech way ahead of time for all your points can allow you to then push into someone or crush a coalition with a bigger advantage.
Taking Expansion first as France has to be a joke, I assume, or just blindly off topic (which is fine).
Taking Expansion first as France has to be a joke, I assume, or just blindly off topic (which is fine).
That's right. Innovative is really helpful to compete with big land powers of similar tech groups (where army tradition is crucial). If you plan to stomp Asia as Castille and steal all the trade value, no need for innovative, even a 5-year-old kid with 0/0 generals and 0 AT can manage it.
3rd idea is 1200 + 600. This is in the area of the 1800+ MIL someone who mil focuses would get. If a player tries to shave 30 mil he's either going to slow down expansion due to holding off on a potentially strong attack window (it'd be easy to get mil 6 in this timeframe) or Bobby Burgundy is going to MIL focus, take offensive + 1 idea for leader shock, and France gets its pants pulled down. It's crazy that in the same paragraph you're talking about holding back miltech to get a small monarch points saving you're also drumming up the benefit of taking a military tech ahead of years.
If you're playing SP, innovative is utter junk for a nation like France. 30 admin saved is 6 base tax worth of coring, and you can get admin ideas 2 even faster, if you want to do so. You're also well behind in utility gain from diplomatic, influence, offensive (siege ability = faster wars), exploration (to bash colonizers and snag gold provinces early, while fleecing AI for money overseas), and maybe even quantity, which will give you similar monarch points savings if you build only one building per year lol.
Also, the -5% is an additive bonus. That's always worth 30 points.
Agreed, taking expansion early as France would be absurd. It's a 3rd idea or later, probably later. It lets you quickly and easily shred land in Asia (either protectorates for trade value or vassal feeding a few hordes who can core it super fast after you full annex --> release them to bring their tech up to snuff and make them Christian...and some of them go religious lol. Even better if it's a European horde you've added as HRE vassal if you're looking for a 1-tag. Abusing horde ideas as HRE vassals makes nations like France equally or more viable 1-tag candidates to the Ottomans haha). It's an amazingly powerful idea group in some situations and weak in others, but it's not a good early idea group except for maybe Russia.
Regardless, the tech advantage from innovative is grossly overblown especially in single player. I'd rather have humanist to laugh at the reformation as an ADM group, but in practice I'd rather have diplomatic and influence as France in SP, giving it the diprep and stacking its NI for -annex cost together with -province costs to go on a tear. Toss in Aristocratic for an extra diplomat (France doesn't need much more fighting power) and go to town.
Personally, I have become very fond of taking Economic as the first idea, and then Quantity as the second idea in 1.8. As I love having a huge army in early game, before all the discipline and other bonuses really stack up.
Plus, no one has yet mentioned the biggest reason that I like to go Economic. It is the events. Getting a chance for permanent higher base tax or manpower in a province is really nice. As is the 10% bonus to tax, -20% to building, and (one of my favorites) a 10% to Army Maintenance. If you like to run with huge armies, you have to be able to afford the maintenance of those armies, and still make some extra to build stuff.
As for the reasons I love quantity second? Well, first off the much quicker regeneration of the manpower pool. Through both the idea for 20% faster refill, and all the events for more free manpower. plus, there is another 10% off Army Maintenance too. Also, there is very nice synergy between Economic an Quantity, their policy gives even more Force Limit size. And yes, I do know the downside of going Quantity too. That horrible event for losing Army Tradition does suck. However, I will take 100 units at even 0% AT against your 30 units at 100% AT in the early game anytime. Especially, since that is an exaggeration of what will actually happen.
Plus, no one has yet mentioned the biggest reason that I like to go Economic. It is the events. Getting a chance for permanent higher base tax or manpower in a province is really nice. As is the 10% bonus to tax, -20% to building, and (one of my favorites) a 10% to Army Maintenance. If you like to run with huge armies, you have to be able to afford the maintenance of those armies, and still make some extra to build stuff.
As for the reasons I love quantity second? Well, first off the much quicker regeneration of the manpower pool. Through both the idea for 20% faster refill, and all the events for more free manpower. plus, there is another 10% off Army Maintenance too. Also, there is very nice synergy between Economic an Quantity, their policy gives even more Force Limit size. And yes, I do know the downside of going Quantity too. That horrible event for losing Army Tradition does suck. However, I will take 100 units at even 0% AT against your 30 units at 100% AT in the early game anytime. Especially, since that is an exaggeration of what will actually happen.
I mentioned in the above post my love of going Economic and Quantity as the first two idea groups.
I also like going Aristocratic and Offensive for the awesome generals that combo creates, and Diplomatic and Influence for a very different style of game. I don't really like colonizing. So, there are only certain nations that I take the idea groups for that (It is quite amusing to me to take Castile, and NOT colonize, but to instead push into Europe!)
I also like going Aristocratic and Offensive for the awesome generals that combo creates, and Diplomatic and Influence for a very different style of game. I don't really like colonizing. So, there are only certain nations that I take the idea groups for that (It is quite amusing to me to take Castile, and NOT colonize, but to instead push into Europe!)
In 1.7 and before I strongly advocated the offensive/aristo/quantity combination for tough fights (in SP just aristocratic is fine). But 1.8 nerfed the general pip contribution and now it feels like discipline hits and resists much harder, so I'm not sure it's as strong as it once was...though it's still a strong set.
There are some really nice events with Innovative
Yes, but do those events quantify out enough to be worth more than that .18 monarch point/month "great" tech cost reduction
? We're considering opportunity cost here. What are you getting from innovative that defeats the next best alternative? Less money, weaker armies, or fewer points saved depending on if you want to compare it to trade, a military group, or administrative/influence.In MP the equation is different because prestige and AT decay actually matter.
First is not good however things like exploration expansion and such are very strong picks if you know what you are doing.
It's timing military tech. If you're admin focused (and if you go an admin idea first, I assumed you must be) you're talking about getting 1200 in admin points for those 3 ideas before you get 999 capped in military, to be at 4 mil tech when the bonus hits. I agree this is kinda silly, but, being at 5 (which I also stated and is probably normal) is probably a matter of just waiting very briefly for that third admin idea to finish and then promptly buying mil 6. I fail to see how this is unreasonable. If someone attacks you, the mil points are banked and there, and you can just buy 6 immediately. Sitting on 4 waiting for 5 is risky since it's an infantry upgrade, but if your admin points are off the charts, not out of the question.
It's not just a matter of being ahead of tech, it's about timing your tech. You want to be a tech, maybe two, ahead in mil when you fight the strong opponent. My argument is not that taking innovative means you will magically be parked at the top all the time, it means you have the option of focusing it and having it when it matters; a year maybe two before someone who doesn't have it's -5% and france's own idea could even if they wanted to - your mil cost is in the nine hundreds when everyone else has to pay over a thousand. I'm not suggesting you spend out the ass on mil to be constantly at the top all game, but you can when it matters.
Look, I completely agree, but every single one of those idea groups you listed is NOT the same type of group. The OP compares inno with econ. I don't consider econ on this kind of country, so I'm personally comparing it to religious/humanist or administrative. I mean yeah, if I'm playing France I am buying a diplo or mil group first too (probably influence), but that's a totally different cluster.
Right, I think only one guy goofed that and was ignored. It does stack with other bonuses though, allowing you easily -15% or more, which can lead to you dropping a tech cost under 999 a full 2 years before someone else.
Look, I'm not saying I don't agree with you completely in personal practice... but a country that gets an innate -tech bonus DOES get good value for stacking them up. When you can combine them to get a tech advantage either at a really important jump, or a 2 tech advantage over at least a majority of a coalition, it can decide an entire game. I find a major breaking point is that first really massive coalition buildup, which is often coincidentally right when you may be able to snag mil 12 while they're mostly all at 10... and crush everyone.
If you're looking to do military tech timing, the answer is in military ideas, not innovative ^_^. Simply taking 3 ideas in a milgroup with mil focus is already more discount than innovative and it stacks the same way on top of adding shock, fire, morale, or combat ability. In single player, the tech for this is undoubtedly aristocratic, especially for the tech 12 timing you're talking about but even sooner, because you get -24% to military tech cost from that one group if you complete it. Innovative is much better for sustaining built up AT than it is for tech timing attacks.
As for policies, innovative gets 20% infantry combat, but economic gets 20% arty combat and can take 5% discipline also.
Aristocratic is really nasty in MP though, especially after cores disappear.
In SP, you don't want any of this crap as you say, you want influence...though aristocratic is still a useful pick at some point for the extra diplomat and general.
As for policies, innovative gets 20% infantry combat, but economic gets 20% arty combat and can take 5% discipline also.
Aristocratic is really nasty in MP though, especially after cores disappear.
In SP, you don't want any of this crap as you say, you want influence...though aristocratic is still a useful pick at some point for the extra diplomat and general.