Is HoI4 the neglected child of Paradox Interactive?

[Johan]

There are lots of myths in this thread.

The HoI4 team before release was at its core a really large team, and also augmented with members from other projects for a long time.

Saying, "it had just one AI programmer" is a bit weird in comparison to other projects, as its the only project with a 100% dedicated AI developer.

When Wiz was doing AI on HoI4, he was also at the same time the AI programmer for Eu4, CK2 & Stellaris, rotating between all projects.

HoI4 is not a neglected game at Paradox. It was so important for us, that in early 2015 I left the Management Team of Paradox, to spend 100% of my time to lead the project to an alpha-state a year later.

 

[C-Breeze]

@Johan

Cheers for the input. This is why communication is so important. When people don't know the story, invariably many will start making one up.

As for the OP's analogy of Hoi4 and a neglected child, whose to say? Naturally, we all want more resources for our pet project and the frustration over long lingering AI issues is real. So the environment is ripe for threads like this and likely will remain so until many of Hoi4's simmering issues are finally resolved.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Something else to keep in mind is that HoI4 is by far the most technically complicated timeperiod to cover with game and combat mechanics being expected to span over and connect land, sea and air warfare + areas integreating them all ( like Carriers ).

The average knowledge of WW2 also is much greater meaning even small deviations get picked up much easier then say if the wrong duke or whatever was scripted in CK2.

 

[kaguravitro]

Johan, mybe is not neglected but everyone feels they have to spend much resourses until the big troubles were solved. I know the game is more complex than other games from paradox and the aprouch is right for me and i see the correction and better ideas that come with the time. I much complex that previus version too. Im happy with the work, and i want see totaly fixed but im not happy with time needed to reach a resonable playable game(actualy i feel it was reachead) and the funtional game as people wish (no all teh people wants the same, some wants a simulator, others an arcade, but theres a mid point and the mod comunity can make the hard work if the developers gives needed supportm steam workshop made mod use easy for players with auto updates).

 

[Sanny]

I think the team has now learned where exactly it went wrong over the past year and a half, and they are correcting things now, it's just a lengthy process but I'm sure the game will shine above the rest one day. Those of us who have been following the development for years, have seen it be a kind of labour of love. They'll get there one day and it'll be one of the best Paradox games to date, saying that a lot of people already enjoy the game in its current state.

 

[Baron_Mijail]

HOI IV evolves in slow motion, there is no other explanation since 18 months after release it's still barely playable both multi and single player:

In single player we got the defective AI that simply destroys the fun for anyone that isn't brand new to the game.

In multiplayer you can experience tons of bugs and exploits along with a very toxic community that fills games with laggers and trolls to ruin your game experience.

You can join a serious group to play with rules, sure, but since the game is so easy to exploit you will find yourself trying to memorize 5 pages of rules and after that you still have to deal with desyncs, strange errors that kills the saves and the still defective AI that converts any country that isn't player controlled in free territories for invaders.

Honorable mention to the lobby finding screen, were you cannot distinguish hotjoins from starting games so you will probably get stuck there finding a game for half an hour and then another half an hour to fill it with trolls and leavers.

 

[TurboTT]

I think people do not understand how difficult it is to create AI. All strategi games lack a good AI such as heroes of might and magic, warcraft 3, starcraft, total war etc. They might be decent but nothing more, as the game mechanic is more complex the AI is crushed under the weight. And when players ussealy discover and recognice the pattern of Ai which happens in all games, the single player experince will no longer prove a challange.

This is no excuse for having a bad Ai. In this regard paradox have a decent AI. If a player want to evolve more then the challange a AI can provide, the player should play multiplayer.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

How about Paradox tries to introduce OpenAI to the game and then use the evolved script?

 

[mursolini]

HOI4, similar to HOI3, is suffering from over-ambitions. PI tried to redesign almost entirety of features.
-production : not entirely working AI still
-division design - mostly working with AI
-tech tree - still problems of priorities
-National focuses - mostly working, bar research bonuses.
-battle planer - 50 % of game problems come from AI suicidal attitude, division shuffling and divisions swimming in dangerous waters.
-air combat - AI still doesn`t understand where it has to attack and defend.
-naval combat - AI is still bad there
-logistic - working as intended, largely because it is so simple. AI still has out of supply problems.
-invasions - the other 25% of game problems. Too easy to have small, suicidal invasions.

No wonder game had so much problems at launch.

 

[BaddoSpirito]

I think people do not understand how difficult it is to create AI. All strategi games lack a good AI such as heroes of might and magic, warcraft 3, starcraft, total war etc. They might be decent but nothing more, as the game mechanic is more complex the AI is crushed under the weight. And when players ussealy discover and recognice the pattern of Ai which happens in all games, the single player experince will no longer prove a challange.

This is no excuse for having a bad Ai. In this regard paradox have a decent AI. If a player want to evolve more then the challange a AI can provide, the player should play multiplayer.

There is a difference between A.I. being bad and A.I. being so bad that you can conquer the world with Tannu Tuva.

 

[Alex_brunius]

You can join a serious group to play with rules, sure, but since the game is so easy to exploit you will find yourself trying to memorize 5 pages of rules and after that you still have to deal with desyncs, strange errors that kills the saves

I've played active MP with reliable groups pretty much since the game released several times a week ( over 500 hours only in MP ), and I haven't seen a single "strange error that kills the saves".

So either you are extremely unlucky, or you play with hackers & cheaters that that try to mess with the game, console and savefile in ways they are not supposed to do. I suspect the latter and recommend you stop playing with cheaters.

And if you don't like exploits the solution is the same. Stop playing with groups and players that embrace exploits and find yourself a group ( or create one ) where you agree on what is considered exploits and don't need 5 pages of rules.

You might ofcourse argue that PDX should work harder to make exploits or cheats impossible, but since even the biggest AAA MP only titles can't achieve this I consider anything but the most basic efforts there to be pretty much wasted. Exploits could be fixed if they also improve SP ( which they most of the time do ).

and the still detective AI that converts any country that isn't player controlled un free territories for invaders.

You should request expeditionary force and control the commonwealth AI minors forces yourself as UK to get around this problem. It's one of the first basic things you learn in a HoI4 MP game.

There is a difference between A.I. being bad and A.I. being so bad that you can conquer the world with Tannu Tuva.

While the AI has issues these issues are not the reason you can conquer the world with Tannu Tuva IMO. IMO the reason such things are possible is:

• Paradox made a design choice to make minors playable and fun ( able to conquer vast territories ) despite this not being historically accurate at all.
• Paradox made a design choice to give you alot more freedom when designing divisions and what type and how many battalions you can add, as well as a combat model that favors the better divisions & min-max allowing them to inflict 10000:1 casualties.

Change the above two parameters and world conquest even against the current AI as Tannu Tuva could easily be made impossible.

 

[Sir Pellew]

Well, if we'd have to point out a neglected child it's undoubtly Sengoku. I loved the setting and the game and hoped for addons or a second part, but I will have to live with the knowledge that it is too much of a niche to work out as franchise

 

[Carlyle1]

THey will try to make a lot of dlc, spend much mony. Well its their politice, but i think we have spend mony to have a little more free-bug and more complete game. The lack of fuel usage (you can model usage for land unit by tricky method as attrition) and the continuos spaming naval invasion (even if you low values it happens to much), some other features of naval warfare (combats are good but continous patroling is insane, with no cost) continous air patrol, some economic tools.

Its a good game, i thin i willl spend so much mony even if dolar is high in Argentina, but i wish developers decide to solve some core problems. I can wait 2 years of playable ai to get a enought good ai, but the problem i said in last paragragh are anoyng me. I hope they move the resourses to solve this and then reduce to mantein a conservative advance on corrections and upgrades in systems and ai.

The have a comunity that can make mod, heavy mod, so the main feature is listen them, solve problem and implement systems for a better game. Never vanilla will be at the level of modded versions, even if theres differents aproachs (1956 vs BICE for example).

No no no, that fuel consumption can't be simulated by attrition. Because a proper Germany player will max out his reliablity with upgrades and maintenance maybe and lose 0 tanks to attrition. I see you're a typical All welcome player or SP armchair general. Cards are open now.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

HoI4 is not a neglected game at Paradox.

What’s in a name? That which we call a rose, By any other name. ..

Whether you call it neglected or not, the complaints about where it is 18 months out are still the same. Uk not defending its shores, leaving Suez open. AI repeatedly attacking when organization, manpower and equipment are groiund to the bone, these just the most immediate problems off the top of my head in a run through to end of 40 before I quit.
And instead of fixing these and other things in a timely fashion, a DLC consisting a far less essential matters might get released IN THE MIDDLE OF FEBRUARY!

 

[Edopardo]

It's not like CK2 or EU4 were that great at their start. CK2 was a (rather fun) mess, and EU4, while better because it took a lot from EU3, was much, much worse than its current iteration.
And HoI4, while a bit underwhelming at release to my taste, is very likely to grow much better as DLCs are prepared. It has already improved quite a lot.

 

[Gort11]

Of the four Paradox games I play, I'd say Hearts of Iron needs the most work - pretty much entirely on the AI. I'm hopeful for the next patch though. Stellaris is next, and just needs more interesting stuff in it - I find the games I play more samey than the Hearts of Iron ones.

Europa and Crusader Kings are rock solid with few issues, which makes sense as they've been patched so many times.

 

[Farquarsen]

@Johan, I am glad to see PDX is reading these posts. IMO, one AI resource divided over four projects may be the situation causing most of the grief you get from us. Most of the respondents to this thread just want the game to respond in a logical way. That response comes from the AI. Importance of a software engine such as the AI can be determined by the amount of resources assigned. I understand there are now two AI coders on the HOIIV team, so much better than a 1/4 of a source. May I humbly suggest you put all the coders on the AI and fix it before you release cornflakes?

I have some experience in software and one of the tenants I have learned is to start the junior members on fixing defects. They learn the code base and figure out what works well and what does not. In game building, I would think every coder would start the team on the AI to become familiar with the code. As a new feature is introduced, the coder would then be familiar with the AI code the feature will interact with. AI coding may not be snazzy but its really the measuring stick a player uses to determine how well a game is designed.

 

[Mr.Bajskorv]

Obviously it's Victoria who is the neclected child of paradox.

Hearts of Iron is obviously one of the most important IP in their catalog.
The next expansion of HoI IV seems to be a vitamin injection to the game. I think it's steadily getting better.

Some complain that paradox releases unfinished games, I don't agree but there might be some truth to that. I more or less see HoI as an evolving game, adapting with trial and error with the gamercommunity.
Nowadays its so easy to update games through streaming so it's hardly a logistical problem.

But then I'm not a competative player who calculates the best division, compares the stats to much I mostly play rather casual. I have several times run into problems against the AI. I can't be to bad if have 700 h playtime.

 

[Micah Goodman 2]

I wouldn't say it's a neglected title. I would say that the dev team has made some huge mistakes with this title. Many of the AI issues in this game have existed as far back as HoI 2. The AI is still horrible. The dev team still puts entirely too much focus on developing Germany. Hell, even with a dlc that supposedly focuses on China the dev team still can't get away from Germany. New German NF tree anyone? I mean come on, the US hasn't been improved, nor has the Soviet Union, or Italy. Instead we get the chance to recreate the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Woo fricken hoo. Subs are broken. Naval combat is bad in general. We still don't have something as easy and simple as a 'do not upgrade' button for aircraft or land divisions. Don't even get me started on the fiasco that is the battle planner concept. Honestly, if it wasn't for BICE I would have uninstalled this game long ago.

I have this horrible feeling that the new dlc is going to make a bad war in the Pacific/Asia region even worse. The only thing that makes the pathetic Japanese AI even minimally challenging is that it steam rolls China. Now? Who knows. But I have a feeling the Japanese AI is going to fare even worse with the new DLC. Because the Japanese AI is so poorly scripted it does nothing to updated it's ship models. By 1941 it is still producing 1936 tech ships. Do other Paradox titles have issues? Sure. But not to the extent that HoI 4 does. What is even more disheartening is the fact that it seems like the real nuts and bolts problems with the game are being ignored at the expense of adding 'new' content.

HoI 4 Team - Hey, lets kill Hitler off in 1936 so we can play a 'kinder' 'nicer' Germany.

The Community - But subs don't work.

HoI 4 Team - Pfft... who cares? Germany doesn't need subs.

The Community - The Japanese AI is completely broken and will never even remotely approach historic gains in the Pacific

HoI 4 Team - Germany doesn't need Japan to work.

Paradox HQ - all right all development teams, the Chinese market is huge and we need to make our product more interesting in China. CK 2 team, make a Chinese dlc.

CK 2 Team - Got it.

Paradox HQ - EU 4 team, make a Chinese dlc.

Eu 4 Team - got it.

Paradox HQ - HoI 4 team make a Chinese themed dlc.

HoI 4 Team - Germany doesn't need China.

Paradox HQ - It doesn't matter make a Chinese DLC.

HoI 4 Team - no.

Paradox HQ - Do it or we are taking away the coffee and bear claws out of the break room!

HoI 4 Team - fine... but we are putting in a new German NF tree because our players have been screaming for it on the forums.

Paradox HQ - They have? Let me see those....

HoI 4 Team - <Hides the computer> They have! Honest. We'll start working on the new dlc right away!

 

[Kimberly]

The dev team still puts entirely too much focus on developing Germany. Hell, even with a dlc that supposedly focuses on China the dev team still can't get away from Germany. New German NF tree anyone? I mean come on, the US hasn't been improved, nor has the Soviet Union, or Italy. Instead we get the chance to recreate the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Woo fricken hoo.

I don't think this is quite far. Paradox has been open about this: statistics show that Germany is far and away the most-played country. (That's not necessarily true among forum users, but there's a "silent majority" effect here.) So what's the best way to sell DLC? Rationally, it means throwing in something that affects Germany. The development team has to balance efforts that improve the core game and keep the community happy in the long term, with things that will sell immediately and bring the new capital that makes continuing development possible. I'm sure they're not always happy with the sacrifices that entails.