The added bonus wouldn't be too bad if called shot mastery didn't get it so high in the first place. My Maurader w CSM pilot is a 35 percent chance for headshots, way too much.
Is headcapping too powerful?
- Thread starter Jade_Rook
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Really the damage reduction bonus for the Marauder is pretty decent in itself, just being passive it's easy to overlook.
Lose or reduce the bonus to the Marauder, otherwise leave Precision shot as is would be my preference. Maybe if it's easy to do a difficulty setting to reduce resolve for those who want it dialled back.
As a tangent if Santa gave us quirks to everything, called shot bonus on the Panther and Vindicator? Less destabilising to the game when you're using called shot with just the one PPC and having just started a new campaign it feels like early game is the time you really need that bonus.
Lose or reduce the bonus to the Marauder, otherwise leave Precision shot as is would be my preference. Maybe if it's easy to do a difficulty setting to reduce resolve for those who want it dialled back.
As a tangent if Santa gave us quirks to everything, called shot bonus on the Panther and Vindicator? Less destabilising to the game when you're using called shot with just the one PPC and having just started a new campaign it feels like early game is the time you really need that bonus.
Panther, maybe, as a "Sniper" role. Vindicator . . . it's really useful that early so the bonus would maybe make it a "must have".
The damage boosting mechs also have some pretty high success-rate headshot builds. I've got an annihilator with double UAC/10s and mLasers that kills on the first shot about as often as my triple UAC/2 quad mLaser Mara builds. 4 shots that can each take a head off in one hit + additional attacks gives pretty great odds and the stability damage comes in handy when it doesn't kill a head. I haven't done the math but I'm pretty confident it's better at head-splatting than a 5 UAC/5 build in spite of having fewer attacks.
I don't agree. The damage reduction is nice but not nearly as good as it seems at first glance, because it's not a flat damage reduction but multiplicative. It only applies after the main damage reduction, not together with it. IMO it is not great on its own, not nearly as good as a +20% damage or -1 init for the whole lance.
Against a low chance target like the head usually more hits (above a critical point of number of hits and damage per hit) is better than bigger hits, whereas against a high chance target like the CT more overall damage tends to do better.
I agree.
There just might be a compromise here. I like the idea floated by others that Precision Strikes against the Head be limited to a single weapon. If this were the case, a Marauder’s 30% would be fine by me. :bow:
I think that called shots are incredibly powerful once you have Tactics 9. I don't think that headcapping is more powerful, because late game builds can core many assaults from the front in one volley.
One interesting thing with Heavy Metal, is that I think that it has made headcapping easier to get going reliably rather than coring or legging. With the Marauder, Warhammer, and Annihilator, you can build something out of the box that will blow the head off a mech with a PS the majority of the time.
Add in a mech like my SWAT Griffin (2x TAG++ and 4x Inferno++), and you can provide a shutdown mech that a single 45 damage ER Medium or UAC5 shot will headcap on the free called shot (unless the target is in cover). Yes, it takes me using a second mech, but it guarantees that I can generate a kill with whatever method works best for me.
I'd suggest making TAG and NARC not stack, as that just synergizes to an [Mod edit: please avoid hyperbole in this thread] level. I'd also look at the amount of heat that is generated by the ++ version of the inferno, as I can pretty well guarantee a shutdown. I say this even though I've been enjoying the [Mod edit: hyperbole] of what I'm doing.
One interesting thing with Heavy Metal, is that I think that it has made headcapping easier to get going reliably rather than coring or legging. With the Marauder, Warhammer, and Annihilator, you can build something out of the box that will blow the head off a mech with a PS the majority of the time.
Add in a mech like my SWAT Griffin (2x TAG++ and 4x Inferno++), and you can provide a shutdown mech that a single 45 damage ER Medium or UAC5 shot will headcap on the free called shot (unless the target is in cover). Yes, it takes me using a second mech, but it guarantees that I can generate a kill with whatever method works best for me.
I'd suggest making TAG and NARC not stack, as that just synergizes to an [Mod edit: please avoid hyperbole in this thread] level. I'd also look at the amount of heat that is generated by the ++ version of the inferno, as I can pretty well guarantee a shutdown. I say this even though I've been enjoying the [Mod edit: hyperbole] of what I'm doing.
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Greetings Mechwarriors,
We've been doing very well, let's not return to this.
Again:
Thank you
We've been doing very well, let's not return to this.
Again:
Thank you
Continuing my (very slow) play-through, I can report my experience.
1) I got my Marauder built-up around day 250. As I mentioned above, I put almost every +dmg energy weapon I have on it (2xLL, 2xML, 2xSL), max armor and Jump Jets.
2) When I first got it built my one pilot was Called Shot Mastery was in the med bay. Without that (only having Called Shot Bonus), CT-targetting was much more effective than targeting the head, but it was still useful to target the head late in the mission (when most of the OpFor was destroyed and I has control of the map) as a way to get more salvage (mostly for poke-mech reasons, I ended up head-capping a number of mediums). Even if it took 2 or 3 turns, I could eventually kill the pilot or destroy the head.
3) Once I was able to get a pilot with Called Shot Mastery headcapping became much more effective. If I can jump within SL range then it has 6 weapons such that any two of them hitting (other than both SL hitting) will destroy the head, which gives solid odds of a one-turn kill. Without the SL, it will occasionally kill in one turn and occasionally miss the head entirely, but most often hit with one weapon and give a two-turn kill.
4) I don't have any difficulty getting enough morale to make PS with that mech whenever I want (on the other hand, I just picked up 3 parts of a second marauder, and completing it and building it up will be a lower priority because I don't have more +dmg weapons and I would have to conserve morale much more carefully to make us of two PS).
Additionally: with the SL being an important part of it's damage I am using it at knife-fighting range more often than I would choose for a command mech, and this means that I'm often using both vigilance and PS in the same turn (if I move it out of cover to get a quick kill), and I still generally have plenty of morale available.
5) It is really fun to be able to regularly destroy the head of an undamaged mech. Aesthetically, however, that is not the feel that I want from BATTLETECH. It does significantly change the experience of an engagement.
6) I don't know how it compares to other endgame strategies, but in early-midgame, it's a clear boost in power. Given that I don't have a lot of +dmg weapons yet (still waiting on the Black Market invitation, despite having a +80 rep with the pirates), it is both one of my most effective ways to take out an opponent (in a given turn I'll usually have the MAD attack one opponent and everyone else focus fire on a different one, and each of those approaches will generally kill a mech in 2 turns), it also makes a lot of salvage available (that's how I got 3 more marauder parts; 3-turns of PS strikes to the head of an OpFor marauder (in woods) was well worth it.).
In terms of available strategies at this stage of the game, headshots from the Marauder are equivalent in lethality to maneuvering to focus fire on rear-CT attacks. But the latter is more situational, requires taking more risks, and leaves less salvage.
1) I got my Marauder built-up around day 250. As I mentioned above, I put almost every +dmg energy weapon I have on it (2xLL, 2xML, 2xSL), max armor and Jump Jets.
2) When I first got it built my one pilot was Called Shot Mastery was in the med bay. Without that (only having Called Shot Bonus), CT-targetting was much more effective than targeting the head, but it was still useful to target the head late in the mission (when most of the OpFor was destroyed and I has control of the map) as a way to get more salvage (mostly for poke-mech reasons, I ended up head-capping a number of mediums). Even if it took 2 or 3 turns, I could eventually kill the pilot or destroy the head.
3) Once I was able to get a pilot with Called Shot Mastery headcapping became much more effective. If I can jump within SL range then it has 6 weapons such that any two of them hitting (other than both SL hitting) will destroy the head, which gives solid odds of a one-turn kill. Without the SL, it will occasionally kill in one turn and occasionally miss the head entirely, but most often hit with one weapon and give a two-turn kill.
4) I don't have any difficulty getting enough morale to make PS with that mech whenever I want (on the other hand, I just picked up 3 parts of a second marauder, and completing it and building it up will be a lower priority because I don't have more +dmg weapons and I would have to conserve morale much more carefully to make us of two PS).
Additionally: with the SL being an important part of it's damage I am using it at knife-fighting range more often than I would choose for a command mech, and this means that I'm often using both vigilance and PS in the same turn (if I move it out of cover to get a quick kill), and I still generally have plenty of morale available.
5) It is really fun to be able to regularly destroy the head of an undamaged mech. Aesthetically, however, that is not the feel that I want from BATTLETECH. It does significantly change the experience of an engagement.
6) I don't know how it compares to other endgame strategies, but in early-midgame, it's a clear boost in power. Given that I don't have a lot of +dmg weapons yet (still waiting on the Black Market invitation, despite having a +80 rep with the pirates), it is both one of my most effective ways to take out an opponent (in a given turn I'll usually have the MAD attack one opponent and everyone else focus fire on a different one, and each of those approaches will generally kill a mech in 2 turns), it also makes a lot of salvage available (that's how I got 3 more marauder parts; 3-turns of PS strikes to the head of an OpFor marauder (in woods) was well worth it.).
In terms of available strategies at this stage of the game, headshots from the Marauder are equivalent in lethality to maneuvering to focus fire on rear-CT attacks. But the latter is more situational, requires taking more risks, and leaves less salvage.
I've found honing a force to rely on Marauder headcaps places a greater stress on success. Making it happen is still subject to random chance, and a failure can be quite costly when going up against things the same weight class or higher. (My Marauder currently is using UAC/2++, 2x PPC++ Donal, and 2x ML++ Magna - if I had them I'd use 2x LL Magna instead of those PPCs, for a less stressful heat load. Maybe leverage the weight savings to include a second UAC/2++.) Against things Medium and lighter, the called shot to the head is almost not necessary as the damage output can be quite lethal already. But it is still more fragile, and the 10% reduction doesn't necessarily help when I take it to closer-range to make use of the MLs. (Let alone using Small Lasers.) It tends to draw fire if moved up, and if I leave it in the back the MLs are wasted space. A number of times I've put the strategy to stress-tests, and almost wound up having the Marauder grievously damaged - losing side torsos or legs with surprising regularity. (In a Career Mode play with "Mech Destruction" turned on, I would not be risking it.)
It's an interesting unit. But once you can get your hands on things which mount dual Gauss (not to mention the Gauss Rifles themselves), it stops being as impressive. Dual Gauss can explode ammunition seemingly more regularly than the Marauder can headcap, and even if it fails it tends to leave a considerable mark at a longer distance. The limitation factor being acquiring the Gauss and ammunition enough to really make it work, but that's a matter of RNG at the right stores. (Did I mention two Gauss shots destroy a turret outright due to it dealing structure damage now? Pesky Heavy LRM Turrets can be erased now.)
Seriously, having even one Gauss Rifle ready to deploy with at least two ammo bins to feed into it . . . changes a great deal. Should it be able to mount on an Annihilator for the Ballistic bonus damage, well...
I can imagine that. For as useful as the Marauder is, I wouldn't attempt a 4-skull mission with my current lance. But I do think the Marauder makes it significantly more likely to be able to complete a 3- or 3.5-skull mission without taking internal damage (I just did a 3-skull attack/defend mission in which I killed at 16 opponents without taking internal damage, but a 3-skull Flashpoint assassination mission in which I was facing 9 medium mechs at the same time resulted in internal damage for multiple mechs).
On the other hand, at the same time I built-up the marauder I also built up an Orion-K which I had recently salvaged. My standard build for an Orion would feature 2 LRM-15s, but I didn't have any +LRMs, so I built it with an AC-20++ (+20dmg/+20stab) and a SPPC +10dmg, figuring the combination would be likely to do internal damage on a Medium mech without PS. Comparing the two, the Marauder is _vastly_ more helpful.
I'm not a big fan of AC-20s, so I didn't expect the Oriion to be a new favorite -- I figured it would be a solid damage dealer for now and eventually I'd re-spec if to something more to my tastes -- but the comparison with the Marauder is really unfavorable.
I'm not going to argue it's not useful, or it's not worth the risk - that's a judgement for each of us commanders to make. I mean, there's a guy out there who completed a career with only AC/2s . . . and another trying to do so under the influence of "coffee" while he runs a gaming studio. We're all prone to our own outlooks and ideas coloring our perceptions, but when consulting the track record? I hope to be back to streaming again next year with this new rig I'm assembling. I'll be sure to do an episode from my Campaign Mode save and start showing off what I'm talking about. The Marauder "headcap machine" just relies a lot on too many variables (not all of them something which can be controlled).
In the end, there's multiple ways a player can establish dominance over the AI thanks to having the ability to customize 'Mechs, a save/load system, and much longer times to indulge in making decisions.
In the end, there's multiple ways a player can establish dominance over the AI thanks to having the ability to customize 'Mechs, a save/load system, and much longer times to indulge in making decisions.
Yes, and I think the game does a good job of striking a balance between fun and challenge (and part of fun is allowing enough freedom that multiple strategies can succeed and a player isn't punished too much for not using a purely optimal strategy).
That said, there should still be a limit to how much dominance a player can establish (or how easily). I said above that I wouldn't do a four-skull mission with my current lance. But, consider the counter-factual, let's say that I did feel comfortable taking on a four-skull contract at day 950 with a lance consisting of Marauder, Black Knight and 2 mediums (with the Orion replacing a Medium on a map where mobility was less important), with very few +dam weapons, only two pilots with a skill of 9, and Iron Man + lethality + center torso mech destruction as options. I would think, in that case, I was advancing through the difficulty scale a little too quickly.
But, I recognize that this is, in large part, an aesthetic argument. For me, headcapping with a Marauder is fun, but doesn't really feel like BATTLETECH to me. I can easily understand why somebody else might think that it was exactly the sort of BATTLETECH experience they wanted.
Do you mean only one weapon against head shots and not against legs or CT?, because I don't think that going to happen ever without mods. You need to invest a lot into the morale system if you want those juicy PS, but then you'll only be able to use them with just one weapon when aiming at one of the two most obvious choices?. Wouldn't be much simpler just tuning down the PS multiplier or modifying the weight tables?. PS needs to be good (I mean, not OP but still very good), morale needs to worth all the investment or many players will just keep it at the minimum level required to prevent the pilots from jumping out of the boat. It's not a little game mechanic gone out of hand but a very important one very integrated into both combat, economic system (morale upgrades) and pilot development. You can have a pilot without Breaching Shot but you can't have one uncapable of using Precision Shot.
I recently finished my solo Career, ending with a M3R after playing most of the time with an ASN Coil-L, it took me a long time to build the mech, as I farmed a lot plus trying to level up a second backup pilot (whom I lost in an event).
Ironically I've found five skull missions are usually a LOT easier than three skull ones. Mostly depends on the amounts of light and med mechs, those are the most dangerous when solo because they're a lot harder to kill by headcapping when you don't have support from other mechs if there are many of them. Definitely you can headcap every single heavy and assault in any mission, the hard part are those medium/lights. If they have high %DR then the best choice is not firing or going for the head, the CT if they're in the open.
Also may take a few more but in general missions with less but heavier (and slower) foes are very very easy, because you can dance around the map and have absolute control of the LoS, while that's much harder against many light/med and fast heavies at the same time (like 6-8, four is no problem). Even if those heavies/assaults have Sensor Lock you can outpace them (high speed plus JJs) and dominate the rules of engagement at will.
My initial setup, which works perfectly fine in a full lance was a 3xUAC2++ 2xERML++ RF+++ 4xDHS 4xJJs, even adding another ERML wouldn't be a problem. But in biomes like Martian or Lunar that's not good enough, I had to drop one ERML for better jumping performance (cooling) and add one more ton of ammo and one extra DHS. Because against mostly assaults that's not an issue but it is soloing versus lights/meds I may get short of "bullets", there you'll more careful about ammo and try to not waste it by overkilling, which may result in bad decisions if you get too greedy, like trying to kill some foes dropping UAC2s and using only one or two ERMLs for a few turns. Ammo is a bit of an issue, so I want to test a 4xERML++ 1xAC5++, and perhaps a 4xERML++ for maximum evasion and damage sustainability.
The UAC2s aren't there because their extreme range but because they're very efficient and have higher than AC20/SRM/MML range but I try not to fire them ever alone due to ammo concerns. I still sometimes do it, but not very often. The RF++ or better is very important as well. Ace Pilot along JJs is huge against any kind of foes, Master Tactician wouldn't be of much help because the majority of the time you're going to be at phase three (Vigilance), along pushing back init other mechs with PS, so if you don't kill a medium mech it's very likely you'll be able to fire two consecutive times at him, and jump out after the second one (AP).
The Gauss is not as good against slow targets, you need to rely a lot on lucky shots, and far worse against faster targets, where it does just lack damage to begin with for CT core not depending on ammo explosions for which you only get two chances per turn. And that is without foes evasion added into the mix.
Depending on the terrain those are kind of a mixed bag. They can be very very easy alone or can be somewhat difficult sometimes because you may have to fight very early one like 8-12 foes at once. But, again, if the foes are mostly heavies/assaults it will be easy. But you need to kill those couple light/med first (if there are some), you can't ignore them and the priority goes first the faster ones, then the ones with Sensor Lock and after that the ones with more damage potential. Also this works the same when you do 2.5-3 skull missions with a single ASN Coil-L but just takes a lot longer (and definitely it's a bit harder). Also in that case (ASN) while the priority is the same the difficulty reverses. Missions with lighter mechs are very easy and with heavier mechs much harder if there are more than two-three meds or heavier. And that's in a big way because you can't one shot kill semi reliably, you don't get one shot kills against full armored meds and heavies, not reliable at all with just one shot at 18%.
On the contrary, you don't rely on many variables, you don't have to, like you'd do with other setups like an ANH probably does (still haven't spent much time soloing with this) or most setups without JJs do, or in lucky ammo explosions. You can actually rely on two salvos with (combined) 95% of headcapping a King Crab at 0%DR or 80% at 40%DR when you have relatively high evasion, decent speed, good initiative, higher than ML/SRM/AC20 range, you can spot to yourself, and AP helps you to maintain positional advantage and frequent double fire turns. The M3R is like if Mayweather was also a knockout artist, like if his punches weren't the most powerful of the game but not too far from it, and still nobody could touch him, only barely.
Kinda weird that a Precision Shot wasn't/isn't limited to a single weapon on launch. I mean, just like "Breaching Shot", it seems to indicate 1, and only 1 weapon, should be able to be used.
I mean, going by how the mechs fire the weapons, how can you be "precise" with multiple weapon systems?
You are right.
At a single moment in time, a sniper fires a precision strike with his sniper rifle...
...not his sniper rifle, his pistol, his combat shotgun and his AT-4!
When that one shot absolutely positively has to have the best chance possible of hitting what one aims at - Precision Strike.
I've been playing with my UA/C10 Marauder with a Called Shot Mastery MechWarrior and I think it feels OP.
It isn't the salvage aspect as at this point in my play through I seem to mostly have what I need. Also with 5 parts salvage, I still need to do some work to get a chassis.
I think the main issue is that I find myself using called shot with the Marauder to quickly remove the most dangerous mech threats off the board. There is of course no guarantee the head will be hit, however after a few missions, it feels reliable.
I feel like it could be dialed back a bit.
It isn't the salvage aspect as at this point in my play through I seem to mostly have what I need. Also with 5 parts salvage, I still need to do some work to get a chassis.
I think the main issue is that I find myself using called shot with the Marauder to quickly remove the most dangerous mech threats off the board. There is of course no guarantee the head will be hit, however after a few missions, it feels reliable.
I feel like it could be dialed back a bit.
Or a gallant mech warrior jumps in danger close to resolve the enemies mech into components to focus fire on one particular part (that's my personal head canon for what precision strike is)
Or the LOStech targeting computers on an Annihilator doing their stuff to bring down fire from afar
Or the directional warhead on a LRM/SRM being programmed to aim for the cockpit (which we can pretty much do now so ought to be still doable in the far future)
All different ways of visualising precision strike, all currently valid ways of playing the game
I actually find that the MechWarrior games give some idea on this. They are the best simulation of how actually piloting a mech would be like. Focusing all of a mech's weapons on a single location isn't actually that difficult. The turn based games actually introduce a lot more scatter than there would actually be.
I have no problem with PS allowing multiple weapons from a balance or realism perspective.
I think if the Marauder bonus didn't multiply head hit chances or if the head hit chance was capped at 15% or 20% that would work better.
I have no problem with PS allowing multiple weapons from a balance or realism perspective.
I think if the Marauder bonus didn't multiply head hit chances or if the head hit chance was capped at 15% or 20% that would work better.
Meanwhile I'm not sure what to make of the Marauder. Just started a new campaign to do the story missions again. Got a marauder early doors (side torso/side torso/leg/random head hit) and things snowballed very rapidly. Went to the first strike mission on Weldry with two marauders, an archer and a shadowhawk for scout. I'm now on the way to Smithson and potentially I could take to battle an Annihilator, Awesome and Stalker, all of which were acquired by headcapping from a marauder, although I suspect I'll dial it back quite a bit
It's clearly very very good, is it gamebreaking?
If it is it's because you can get one relatively early, the stock build isn't disastrous and the fact it can do it's damage from range.
I'm sort of talking myself into it, but Marauder headhunting needs dialling back a bit. Whether it's done by a direct nerf to the Marauder or a limit to the probability of hitting the head I'm not sure
It's clearly very very good, is it gamebreaking?
If it is it's because you can get one relatively early, the stock build isn't disastrous and the fact it can do it's damage from range.
I'm sort of talking myself into it, but Marauder headhunting needs dialling back a bit. Whether it's done by a direct nerf to the Marauder or a limit to the probability of hitting the head I'm not sure
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