Is headcapping too powerful?

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Prussian Havoc

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@KDubya...However the assumption here is that HBS see head capping as it is now as illegitimate.
I respectfully disagree.

In no way is HeadHunting illegitimate. Nor do I believe HBS looks at issues like this one as Legitimate/Illegitimate.

To me HeadHunting is just the latest in a long line of topics that may or may not draw the attentions of BATTLETECH’s Live Support Team.

Some earlier topics were LRM Instability, ”Angel of Death”, ”Juggernaut”, etc. In each instance HBS weighted, measured and found the situation wanting. Changes were made. Changes that in my opinion made the game better. Across the board, BATTLETECH was made all the better in these instances where HBS refined the mechanisms already in play, or moved on to a new mechanism.

I fully expect HeadHunting has already been looked at quite closely by BATTLETECH’s Live Support Team, whether or not it any determination was arrived at to refine any facet of the issue remains to be seen.

Maybe in Free Update 1.9, and then again maybe not. :bow:
 

Jolly Joker

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I can only repeat myself here:
The new toys are great and a lot of fun - but of course the game becomes somewhat simpler with them - easier to win. It's basically four levels of weapons, regular, regular +, lostech and lostech +.

I think the game would profit a lot from a function I suggested, that each player-configured and actually used (in a mission) mech would become part of the AI mech pool (for that career). This would mean, if the player would use a fancy config with Snub++ PPCs and whatnot, that same mech (with the same loadout) would have a chance to appear as mech for the opfor. (I already suggested that in the suggestions subforum).

This would solve most problems based on the fancy weapons and brutal mech loadouts. I mean, think about it. Facing an opfor with a lance of YOUR vintage mechs.

What it would not solve, are the things the AI cannot reproduce, so that would leave the Marauder still with a too high Called Shot bonus, since you won't ever face a Marauder suddenly calling a shot to the head of one of your pristine mechs and smashing it to pulp with ERM Lasers and UAC2s.
 

Doctor Machete

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Yeah, it's not tabletop. And it probably shouldn't be. But there's some things which keep things in check which HBS' game did not keep - and we're seeing the results of that. Headshots on demand with a full alpha strike, being able to spike someone into shutdown with heat weapons... these things just weren't something you could do in the tabletop. (There were other broken options, but they took some effort to get there.)

I'm quite certain, well . . . you don't care about it. And while you're fishing for me to advocate and try to play developer - no. That's HBS' job to do, not mine, and not yours. They want to "screw up" their game, that's on them. Players want to cheat their way through the game with headshot machines and then complain how it's trivialized? That's on the players.
You don't like to play developer yet you (and me and everybody here) have expressed some opinion about the state of the game and what could be done?. Do you realize that to some extent this game targets people who may never heard before of BT, right?. What I'm saying is that whatever solutions you propose should take that into account, because otherwise is not very likely to happen imo.

Do you really consider cheating playing accordingly to the game rules?. Not cheat codes, not exploits, but skills within the core of the career/campaign progression, like building morale so you can use PS/Vigilance more often?. How can that be a player's fault wanting to do as well as he can within the game constraints?. There are not dozens of morale based skills but only two, and using them intensively after buying Argo upgrades is "cheating your way"?.

The Marauder's effectiveness seriously is too random to call "reliable", as far as I can call it. It's more reliable compared to other methods, certainly. But far more reliable? Hitting a 'Mech with all the ordinance I can until it goes down and doesn't get back up. Having a full Lance which can delete a single troublesome 'Mech (or render more than one into non-threats) is more reliable than sinking Resolve into Precision Shots and hoping it works. Because there's still a not-insignificant chance it won't happen.
I think you're not seeing it like I see it. For example, if you need to kill nine mechs you don't rely on being able to specifically oneshot kill any particular mech, you rely on killing fast enough you won't be surrounded by them and exactly which one takes one or two salvos (or sometimes even three) doesn't matter much. You rely on that and survivability, like having relatively high evasion, only one target being able to fire at you thanks to range plus mobility from JJs (controlling Line of Fire), Vigilance, Bulwark + Cover and Ace Pilot to fire -> jump away -> fire -> jump away or reserve -> jump into -> fire -> fire again -> jump out.

So it is not just the quirk which makes it so good.


And I'll repeat again. This playstyle can be done with many other mechs and loadouts, at a lower level but it can be done. Long before HM I was already doing it, and probably I've mentioned it here and there in this same forum and for sure in Steam. And did it using mostly LL based builds, like A-II 6xLL+++ 1xAC5++/2xAC2++, KC 4xLL+++ 1xAC5 or even GRH 6xML++ (although this one was definitely risky). For "normal" five skull missions LL+++ allowed to cheese the mission but the hardest ones were not so easy, and some like Ambush were super hard.

The A-II has not Gyro (for the LLs) and the KC has Gyro but lacks A-II firepower, both have worse initiative and are slower and they're a lot less damage-on-the-head/heat efficient.

@Doctor Machete
Please could you run the figures again if the Marauder had somewhere around 28-30% bonus, which may be an interesting balance point between 'vanilla' and non-vanilla items that will have a greater divide in availability for those playing new store options or maybe some other options HBS introduce next patch (and those are official options rather than an individual player house rule).
The chart is incredibly useful.
The M3R bonus is a x2.4 multiplier. Now I've used a 2 multiplier, which gives base head chance very close to 30%:

GcyAMKf.png

mjIgks5.png

And notice that "GLOBAL MULT." set to one in the right-down corner. That's because when I used the AIM mod (right now is broken) I could enable clustering, which would increase a lot the chances to the aimed location so this setting was meant to compensate for that (like with a 0.33 value), so now you'd get more or less the same chance to hit the aimed location but those close to it would receive a moderate increase and those location farther would be reduced.

What I'd propose is a similar setting with a slider format, where you can go from 1x (current) to 0x (no called shots at all) and the in-betweens. And of course, if you set it to minimum you should get a better score in the Career. I think this solution would be a good compromise. If you're a newbie don't touch it, but if you're experienced or just don't like using PS then it is a win-win.

And then I'd left the M3R as it is... or not. I don't think it really matters a lot. Is it OP? clearly yes. But there are other not-so-OP but still OP builds, and if you look at what people like to use it would seem than the M3R as one of the most popular, based on threads here and in Steam forums. So yes, many like some cheese from time to time, myself included. Sometimes I want a challenge and other times I just want to relax. If I've been playing Hades or Dead Cells for a couple hours what I don't want from BT is something hardcore but four or five turn based missions to relax. But if I'm going to focus on BT for a while then I'd prefer some serious challenge, like foes using PS on you with custom loadouts (as optional setting), that would be awesome, rather than nerfs.
 

Kereminde

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Do you really consider cheating playing accordingly to the game rules?. Not cheat codes, not exploits, but skills within the core of the career/campaign progression, like building morale so you can use PS/Vigilance more often?. How can that be a player's fault wanting to do as well as he can within the game constraints?. There are not dozens of morale based skills but only two, and using them intensively after buying Argo upgrades is "cheating your way"?.

That depends.

If you'll indulge a tangent? I play Magic: The Gathering, or at least I dabble nowadays. There are no less than four decks I have constructed (and nine more I was aware of over the last ten years) which could set up a situation where the opponent loses without being able to do anything about it. Some of those win "on turn zero" - which is to say, the game starts and with the opening hand it's set up to win. Two of the decks I made had a record of doing it in three turns, putting the opponent in a state where they cannot win - only concede or lose slowly. One outright created an engine of effects which killed them - one which could only be stopped by a thin sliver of spells at the appropriate time, or by a deck built specifically to counter-act it.

All of this is entirely within the rules for deck construction, and the behavior of the cards in question. If you consider this not cheating, then the second question comes into play: "Is this still a fair game?" I dunno, but someone is walking away from that table feeling cheated out of a good time.

So, far as I see it, there are two kinds of "cheating". There's the obvious and blatant kind where a player (or the computer-operated opponent, and don't think I forgive you for that Starcraft!) does things which are outside the bounds of normal play and/or using glitches or holes in the game's code/rules to win. Almost everyone agrees this is cheating. (I say "almost" because I lived with a guy who was rather shameless about cheat/developer codes and debug mode access. "If they didn't want me to do it, it wouldn't still be possible in the game.") Then there's cheating yourself out of the game, which is basically setting it up so you cannot lose, until you decide "I'm done playing this game" and move on to the next one.

If someone is investing earlty-end-game level cash into building a machine just so they can make everything trivial, they're not really playing the game. They're just trying to "win" at a game with no clear win condition and one loss condition. Good for them, but unless HBS is going to rip apart the game - fixing this issue isn't possible short of people getting bored of it. Which will happen before HBS can assemble even a plan to start testing for a fix, most likely.

Though, I still think - deep down - "fixing" this particular issue is just going to have all the people doing this move to a different case to make something "the obvious best choice" and we'll start another topic about how that needs to be fixed too. I say let em get bored with it and either move on to the next game or actually try playing this game with some honest-to-Blake restraint.
 

Prussian Havoc

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I take it as BATTLETECHProof of Life” that we have such vigorous and lively forum discourse, discussion and debate.

And I would not soon see these forum quiet and darken.

Hopefully between HBS Free Updates and the talents and innovation of our BATTLETECH Modding Community, we will have many, many more topics worthy of vigorous and lively forum debate here. :bow:
 

MeiSooHaityu

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I take it as BATTLETECHProof of Life” that we have such vigorous and lively forum discourse, discussion and debate.

And I would not soon see these forum quiet and darken.

Hopefully between HBS Free Updates and the talents and innovation of our BATTLETECH Modding Community, we will have many, many more topics worthy of vigorous and lively forum debate here. :bow:

An announcement of a new Season Pass or Battletech 2: Electric Boogaloo (will also except Battletech 2: The Search for Curly's Gold as well) would also help spur discussion...If only such an announcement would happen:/.

*Crosses fingers and toes*

:)
 

whymakemedothis

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@Prussian Havoc I think you may want to read my comment a bit more carefully. I said head capping as it is now. That means the situation where a player can get a 90%+ chance to head cap on any called shot, not head capping in general. In fact your entire post is what I was trying to sum up with that sentence, if they see it as illegitimate they will make changes to address it, otherwise if it is working as intended the status quo will prevail.

@Timaeus same as Prussian Havoc you may want to take a closer look at what I wrote. I didn't imply I know what HBS are thinking. I was implying we will only see changes to head capping mechanics if HBS believe what players are currently doing is illegitimate in terms of their vision for the game.
 

Timaeus

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@Timaeus same as Prussian Havoc you may want to take a closer look at what I wrote. I didn't imply I know what HBS are thinking. I was implying we will only see changes to head capping mechanics if HBS believe what players are currently doing is illegitimate in terms of their vision for the game.
I'l give you the benefit of the doubt on intent, but yeah it definitely can read in a way that implies the playerbase believes HBS thinks headcapping is bad, or also the way PH took it.
 

Prussian Havoc

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@whymakemedothis, the use of the word “illegitimate” is both off-putting and imprecise in my opinion. “Illegitimate” connotes so many things so very strongly...

...and none of those things are a game development studio evaluating and refining a game mechanism.

It was use of this word that rankled / still rankles. :bow:
 

Orbitone

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@Prussian Havoc I think you may want to read my comment a bit more carefully. I said head capping as it is now. That means the situation where a player can get a 90%+ chance to head cap on any called shot, not head capping in general. In fact your entire post is what I was trying to sum up with that sentence, if they see it as illegitimate they will make changes to address it, otherwise if it is working as intended the status quo will prevail.

@Timaeus same as Prussian Havoc you may want to take a closer look at what I wrote. I didn't imply I know what HBS are thinking. I was implying we will only see changes to head capping mechanics if HBS believe what players are currently doing is illegitimate in terms of their vision for the game.

I think it is worth some time analysing Doctor Machete's chart to put it into perspective to see your 90%, and what various builds can actually do depending upon weapons combined and importantly armour.
You can reach 86% attacking a normal pilot who is not braced or not in cover but that critically is at the cost of having only around 11.5t of armour while also attacking from medium range.
The same build still with only 11.5t armour attacking a standard mech warrior braced or firing from cover drops the figure to 62%, and this build relies upon multiple UACs combined with ML.
There are other builds in the chart I would prefer in comparison.
 

Orbitone

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The M3R bonus is a x2.4 multiplier. Now I've used a 2 multiplier, which gives base head chance very close to 30%:

GcyAMKf.png

mjIgks5.png

And notice that "GLOBAL MULT." set to one in the right-down corner. That's because when I used the AIM mod (right now is broken) I could enable clustering, which would increase a lot the chances to the aimed location so this setting was meant to compensate for that (like with a 0.33 value), so now you'd get more or less the same chance to hit the aimed location but those close to it would receive a moderate increase and those location farther would be reduced.

What I'd propose is a similar setting with a slider format, where you can go from 1x (current) to 0x (no called shots at all) and the in-betweens. And of course, if you set it to minimum you should get a better score in the Career. I think this solution would be a good compromise. If you're a newbie don't touch it, but if you're experienced or just don't like using PS then it is a win-win.

And then I'd left the M3R as it is... or not. I don't think it really matters a lot. Is it OP? clearly yes. But there are other not-so-OP but still OP builds, and if you look at what people like to use it would seem than the M3R as one of the most popular, based on threads here and in Steam forums. So yes, many like some cheese from time to time, myself included. Sometimes I want a challenge and other times I just want to relax. If I've been playing Hades or Dead Cells for a couple hours what I don't want from BT is something hardcore but four or five turn based missions to relax. But if I'm going to focus on BT for a while then I'd prefer some serious challenge, like foes using PS on you with custom loadouts (as optional setting), that would be awesome, rather than nerfs.

Thanks again and the the 1st chart is interesting, 2nd chart is more of a given in same way can core any mech with two attempts without requiring the best (still very good ones though).
Although one comment about the 2nd, if the new official store option limits frequency of Lostech or UACs, then coring twice would be better generally for close to vanilla builds due to braced or in cover; only the full UAC/Lostech can really compete at a 2strike situation - omitting the 11.5t build as that has a pretty high risk/reward ratio when also considering its range.
But my point is not really factoring in the 1st chart with its high probability, just a comment if it ends up in a two strike situation.

I think the 1st chart with it at that close to 30% to hit 2.0 multiplier works well, gives a good balance between transitioning from vanilla to a full out UAC/Lostech.


Your suggestion with Called Shot slider for points could work if it was possibly just applied to Called Shot Mastery as an option, it is only at this point it really starts to show its affect so I am not sure the option should impact Improved Called Shot.

But your comment also makes me wonder if an additional dynamic clustering mechanic would make sense that is based upon location and is subtle; this is additional so not replacing the current one used for missiles/etc.
The head would have say the highest weighting while the center torso the lowest, limbs in between.
However this would need to be subtle relative to how implemented with missiles; so firing 6 weapons and if all 6 hit the head the clustering would be say around good chance only 4 hit cockpit while the other 2 hit the torsos. so still a % chance mechanic that all 6 could in theory land on the head but less frequent.
Firing 5 weapons with all hitting gives a reasonable chance one of those 5 hits torso.
This additional location weighted clustering mechanic could be tied to precision shot or from a balance perspective purely Called Shot Mastery that also limits the impact of the new clustering mechanism.

Anyway with all that said thanks again for the chart as it shows the Marauder could get away with only a minor tweak to 2x multipler (just under 30%) when considering the wide range of builds,weapons and possible store options/play styles.
 
Last edited:

Jolly Joker

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Just under 30%?

The first thing is to realize that the Called Shot Bonus and Mastery and the Marauder bonus are influencing ALL aiming probabilities. Not only do they make headcapping possible (and in some cases likely), they also bringt CT hitting prob to 90+%.
In other words, adjusting them (and independently from each other), means adjusting ALL Called Shot probabilities, not just that for head shots (and the lower it is, the less adjustment from the regular probabilities).

If I remember right, I upped the Called Shot Bonus to 2.5 (from 2.4), decreased CSM from 3.75 to 3.2, and decreased Marauder factor from 2.4 to 1.5. That resulted in marginally decreased regular values (17% for headshots) and strongly decreased for Marauder (23%).

Playing with these values a couple of days now, however, is still not making me happy. The thing is, that often your alpha won't be enough to core a Mech due to not enough damage (and mechs without ammo can't explode either), but you'll always have at least a chance to headcap, so in that case a Called Shot to the head is a better option, since even if it doesn't work you couldn't have offed it anyway (of course trying to take out something else might work with some mech models just as well).

So I'll probably bring down CSM to 14% and the Marauder to 20 or 21% - but there is of course another option to consider: increasing the head armor and/or structure points. Adding 20 points would be a throwback for MLs and AC2s - but not and especially not for the fancier stuff which would make them even better, so I don't think that would be a solution.
 

Orbitone

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Please just look at Doctor Machete's charts.....
And also context, not everyone is using UAC/ER ML, nor is it practical to field a 11.5t armoured Marauder with 4xML combined with xUACs or 3AC2.
And you will face mechs that are braced or firing from cover.
I have mentioned pretty clearly the figures several times now, also in context of what facing, stores-weapons,etc.

His chart is pretty clear both with the earlier one (page 23) and the recent one at 2x multiplier that is somewhere around 28-30%.
And then you can put it into perspective/context on what people will be using and build compromise as he also shows armour tonnage, consider new store options/play styles, and also the reality of the chance when the enemy mech is braced or in cover.
 
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Prussian Havoc

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...So I'll probably bring down CSM to 14% and the Marauder to 20 or 21% ...
Something along these lines does indeed seem to address both CSM and the Maraurder’s Quirk quite effectively.

Next week on Mitch Plays to Win, Mitch will be talking more about our 16 New Mech Varsints, identifying at least some of the new Variants.

Perhaps as talk turns to Mech Variants, especially if one of those Agnew Variants turns out to be a Marauder, we’ll be able to get more information on whether or not it’s Quirk has been refined. : )
 

Jolly Joker

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Please just look at Doctor Machete's charts.....
And also context, not everyone is using UAC/ER ML, nor is it practical to field a 11.5t armoured Marauder with 4xML combined with xUACs or 3AC2.
And you will face mechs that are braced or firing from cover.
I have mentioned pretty clearly the figures several times now, also in context of what facing, stores-weapons,etc.

His chart is pretty clear both with the earlier one (page 23) and the recent one at 2x multiplier that is somewhere around 28-30%.
And then you can put it into perspective/context on what people will be using and build compromise as he also shows armour tonnage, consider new store options/play styles, and also the reality of the chance when the enemy mech is braced or in cover.
The chart shows the probs with a Marauder CSM prob of around 30%, and the numbers are quite obviously still way too high, which should also be clear - if 35% is way too high, than 30% won't change a lot - or, in other words, if 30% WAS ok, then surely 35 wouldn't be THAT far off the mark.
 

Orbitone

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The chart shows the probs with a Marauder CSM prob of around 30%, and the numbers are quite obviously still way too high, which should also be clear - if 35% is way too high, than 30% won't change a lot - or, in other words, if 30% WAS ok, then surely 35 wouldn't be THAT far off the mark.

Going with just under 30% and 2x multipler on Marauder:
How is 58% chance dropping to 26% firing all weapons at enemy in cover/braced chance OP relative to a strong mech setup for coring that also has some greater flexibility in terms of damage to take on tanks/turrets/etc?
The 58%-26% requires compromised range of ML until you can change that figure by implementing Lostech energy weapons.
The 2nd chart (2 strikes at 30%) actually infers if needing a 2nd strike then coring is a better option (context a strong mech that can be designed to core well), up to when you can field a Marauder completely with Lostech and UACs.
As a reference the ideal end-game UAC/ER ML and with the 30% bonus ends up at 69% and then 64% if enemy braced or in cover.

It feels some are just focused with an end game meta context ignoring:
a) you do not start with the Marauder that way and takes time to build to the ideal UAC/ER ML
b) not everyone play style will be UACs/ER ML, other builds require some kind of compromise
c) the Official incoming new store option if selected is going to make it even more difficult to pull off Lostech/UACs that also leads back to b).

The reality is you would start with the above figure and slowly increase your chance as you gain more advanced weapons, which has to take into context the official incoming store patch along with the game designed for all players and the more general play style.

Same context if we focus on end game meta logically changing Precision Strike where it is very powerful too much would mess up earlier parts of the game and also impact majority players who have a different play style or want diversity for a more fun game.


Edit:
Added more data points.
 
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Axterix13

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c) the Official incoming new store option if selected is going to make it even more difficult to pull off Lostech/UACs that also leads back to b).
Well, the Lostech bit of that is still going to be cake, since the BSK MAZ comes with 4 ER ML++s. So then you only need the Ultra 2s. And until you get those, you'll have 2 Ultra 5+s to play with.
 

Jolly Joker

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Cover is rarely a factor. Even if it was, you can bang on an AC/20 (even without the new toys). An AC20 ALONE would have already 30% headshot prob.
You can also try a double AC 10+(+). Even a double AC20 isn't out of the question (although, extreme builds that demand sacrifices are interesting).

The important figures are not what might be the lowest value under bad conditions (the AI isn't known to hug cover, and there are lots of no-cover-available situations), the important figures are what you can expect to regularly happen.

Also, your argument c) is a strawman: even if there would be an option coming to play with or without headshot, the headshot as such shouldn't be grossly overpowered..

Lastly, the new weapons should be good for something. If you can do everything nice and easy without them...
 

Orbitone

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To put it into perspective currently going through the campaign and came across an Annihilator supported by Medium/Heavy on a 3Skl contract; I know this contract usually fields one stronger mech so went 3 parts salvage.

I have a Marauder but no ER ML, only a UAC5 (rare find) - my store has been tweaked.
I cleanly salvaged 3 parts not using the Marauder that would take a battering but using my Firestarter with a Called Shot Mastery scout jumping and firing MGs and SLs at the head in alternate rounds, nearly no risk of taking damage and definitely no risk of coring the Annihilator.
This left the other 3 mechs to deal with the rest of the lance away from the Annihilator.
It was trivial using a Firestarter to headshot repeatedly supported by /Griffin/Marauder/C9AL Centurion (stupid damage fielding SNPPC with SRM6s used by a mechwarior without Called Shot Mastery, C9A setup as a tankbuster so was not used).
Zero structure damage, nearly zero risk on any of my mechs and nearly a complete Annihilator 1st go with 3pcs salvaged; one reason why I set higher parts to create a mech.
The Firestarter is obviously used by a high Pilot tech tree warrior with the defense bonuses that gives while the mech also having my best defense gyro.

Edit:
And this is with the behaviour file tweaked to ensure the AI fires more effectively than standard if you have higher evasion.
 
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