Is "Greek" unfairly the superior culture?

[unmerged(100125)]

After playing a game as greek and a game as occitan... I couldnt help but notice that being greek culture is far far superior... Catafract retuines are much much better then the french/occitan heavy cav one... which is supposed to be good in its own right. Blinding and castrating are excellent, I was shocked to see that you had access to them just for being greek, even if you werent in the empire.

I cant think of any other culture that just blows all other culture groups away... now rather then nerfing greek culture... does anyone else think they REALLY need to add culture specific events/decisions to all cultures?

As it is when im using the ruler designer I have a hard time not checking off "greek" everytime, regardless of where I'm playing simply because the perks are that good.

thoughts?

 

[Hackworthy]

No.

 

[Khelder]

Catafract has more mobility than french/occitan heavy cavarly because they have horse archers and it allso allows then to fight in archers turn.And why you can use it even if you are not in ERE is because most Greek people lived in ERE and game is not able to take apart Greek living in or out ERE and so it treats them same way doesn´t matter where they are.

 

[unmerged(445219)]

Greek isn't, but Mongol is. Not only do you get access to the best retinues and special units in the game, but you also get access to a dozen cheap horse archer mercenaries anywhere in the world. Oh, and you also get a bonus to cultural conversion. Ruler designing yourself Mongol, and toppling the two empires will make the world completely Mongol once the hordes show up.

 

[Alyiakal]

Perhaps I'm playing the game wrong, but why exactly is being able to blind and castrate your prisoners a good thing? Each of them slaps a HUGE opinion penalty on the target, and the target's relatives. So even when the rebellious duke dies, his kinsmen are NOT happy with you.

 

[liamgamer55]

There's nothing unfair about a nation's superior military organisational system being represented in the game.

Perhaps I'm playing the game wrong, but why exactly is being able to blind and castrate your prisoners a good thing? Each of them slaps a HUGE opinion penalty on the target, and the target's relatives. So even when the rebellious duke dies, his kinsmen are NOT happy with you.

Because it looks cool, why not. Maybe sometimes I feel like my ruler isn't cruel and vindictive enough and that the games too easy? Sometimes I want to go on a blinding and eunuch creating rampage.

 

[Me_]

There's nothing unfair about a nation's superior military organisational system being represented in the game.

The unfair thing is the fact that some nations' strengths are represented while others' aren't. Personally, I don't think that Greek has a fairly substantial advantage. It's better than most, but not in a gamebreaking way.

 

[macphineas]

The real problem is that retinues need better balancing. Unless you're playing with English culture, or maybe one of the light infantry ones, all your retinues are gonna be the culture ones, some of which are much better than others. And you should not be able to have 25% of the manpower of your entire realm be available in retinue space, that's absurd for the middle ages.

 

[liamgamer55]

The unfair thing is the fact that some nations' strengths are represented while others' aren't. Personally, I don't think that Greek has a fairly substantial advantage. It's better than most, but not in a gamebreaking way.

The balance between the unit types has plenty of room for improvement. If you think you could balance them better (and you probably could if you focused on it for a few weeks) then go ahead and make a mod for it. If you're scared of the text files just tell me what the unit sizes you want are meant to be and I'll compile and edit the files for you if you want.

And you should not be able to have 25% of the manpower of your entire realm be available in retinue space, that's absurd for the middle ages.

Small amounts of retinues was cool, but later on (even by 1150) the way they work is awful.

It's basically just dumbing down for "gameplay" (more like casual gameplay) purposes. Very similar to there being loads of ahistorical empires everywhere. That said, both things are easily moddable so perhaps just try using a mod that mods out the cheesy elements of things that are currently in gameplay.

 

[unmerged(281782)]

Actually, cultural charge of French\etc cultural knights is greatly superior to the Greek embolon charge. And as Greeks don't have Mongol retreat and ambush tactic, they cant keep in skirmish long enough for horse archers to overweight couched lance advantage.
But lets forget for a moment about them and look at Dutch\Ethiopian\West African. I mean, light infantry retinue? Anyone is superior to them, even Hungary with their light cavalry.

 

[liamgamer55]

Actually, cultural charge of French\etc cultural knights is greatly superior to the Greek embolon charge. And as Greeks don't have Mongol retreat and ambush tactic, they cant keep in skirmish long enough for horse archers to overweight couched lance advantage.
But lets forget for a moment about them and look at Dutch\Ethiopian\West African. I mean, light infantry retinue? Anyone is superior to them, even Hungary with their light cavalry.

How about you write in this thread, a complete list of what you think each culture's retinue should be, including how many of each type of unit, and then I'll make it into a mod and we can test it out? Alternatively, start with the ones you think are most underpowered (and make them better) and the ones you think are most overpowered (and maybe make them worse, or buff everything else up to their level).

e.g.

RETTYPE_CUL_ALTAIC =
{
first_type = 6 # (is horse archers, you can just write that if it makes your life easier)
first_amount = 260

second_type = 3 # (is light cavalry)
second_amount = 240

culture_group = altaic (avaliable for all altaic cultures)
culture = persian (also avaliable for persians)

modifier = {
horse_archers_offensive = 0.4 (40% bonus to horse archer offensive in each phase)
horse_archers_morale = 0.2 (20% bonus to horse archer morale)
}
}

You can write your response in plain English if that's easier.

e.g.
Altaic culture gets 400 archers and 100 infantry with a retinue cost of 1000

 

[Lwantssugar]

The one thing I find odd is that Polish hussar retinues are light cav, in real life Polish Hussars wore heavy plate armor and were on par in terms of quality with any French, Norman, or Germanic knights

 

[unmerged(281782)]

Actually, I think most retinues are as good as they should be. There is a reason Dutch got their independence only after CK period, when infantry became good enough to oppose knights, and there is a reason steppe nomads defeated a great number of armies of greater size.

What I would work on are combat tactics instead, especially cultural ones.
For example, Altaics shouldn't be able to employ hit-and-run tactic in mountains or forests, this should be easy to mod, just add "location = {OR{terrain = steppe terrain=plains terrain=desert terrain=farmlands}}" to trigger part.
Or archer-dominant flank(perhaps English-specific tactic) should be able to counter cavalry charges with stakes when fighting in hills or forest. Something along the lines of "archers_offensive=2 archers_defensive=2", though that's just a wild guess.
I can't think of much more right now, but I'm sure tactics still need some balancing and new tactics, especially the ones triggered by traits.

 

[unmerged(281782)]

The one thing I find odd is that Polish hussar retinues are light cav, in real life Polish Hussars wore heavy plate armor and were on par in terms of quality with any French, Norman, or Germanic knights

Actually, quote from wiki

Initially the first units of Polish hussars in the Kingdom of Poland were formed in 1500

, and I have no idea. Hungarian hussars were light cavalry indeed.

 

[liamgamer55]

Actually, I think most retinues are as good as they should be. There is a reason Dutch got their independence only after CK period, when infantry became good enough to oppose knights, and there is a reason steppe nomads defeated a great number of armies of greater size.

What I would work on are combat tactics instead, especially cultural ones.
For example, Altaics shouldn't be able to employ hit-and-run tactic in mountains or forests, this should be easy to mod, just add "location = {OR{terrain = steppe terrain=plains terrain=desert terrain=farmlands}}" to trigger part.
Or archer-dominant flank(perhaps English-specific tactic) should be able to counter cavalry charges with stakes when fighting in hills or forest. Something along the lines of "archers_offensive=2 archers_defensive=2", though that's just a wild guess.
I can't think of much more right now, but I'm sure tactics still need some balancing and new tactics, especially the ones triggered by traits.

I'll have a look into creating a general (minor) military mod like that. Sounds like a good idea.