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Apr 30, 2001
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"Of course Germany had the right to build a big navy if they wanted to. However, they have to accept responsibilities for the consequences, which was making England into an enemy, when there was no other reason for England side against Germany. Also keep in mind that the very construction of the fleet was an agressive & bellicose act against Britain. The fleet that Germany built was useful only against Britain. Up to about 1901, the Royal Navy was still planning for a war against France & Russia, especially in the Mediterranean. Suddenly, between 1901 & 1903, the RN realized that the German fleet was being built for the sole purpose of defeating the Royal Navy and starving Britian into surrender. It was the equivalent of the Soviets putting nuclear missiles in Cuba in the early '60s, and Britain reacted accordingly/ "

Germany did not view Britain as a natural enemy, so German fleet was built with the purpose of not starving Britain, but to force Britain and US into recognizing that Germany will no longer be willing to be shut out of colonial spoils. BTW, US was doing exactly the same thing with their own navy, which by 1905 was the third-largest in the world, but I do not see British react the same way to them!

"There was some action to Weltpolitik, although such action was failure. Germany started the two Moroccan Crises, which only served to bring the Entente powers closer together. Germany was more aggressive than any other power from 1890 to 1914. While the other powers jostled each other in the colonial sphere, Germany was the only power that repeatedly attempted to upset the balance of power in Europe. Britain & France may have nearly clashed over Fashoda in 1898, but it that was a colonial matter, which did not involve Europe. Germany, however, seemed intent on destroying its opposition in Europe. "

How is that? Outside of Morrocan crises (which can be classified as colonial affair) what did exactly Germany do which was so agressive?Austria and Russia were the only two Great Powers that were seeking annexations in Europe between 1870 and 1914.

"Germany in 1914 was actually a declining power, like I stated before. Tirpitz's "risk theory" had patently failed, the German army was declined in strength vis-a-vis France & Russia, and the viability of the Schlieffen Plan was becoming increasingly doubtful. The German domestic position was in shambles, after the triumph of the Social Democrats in the elections of 1912. Its only reliable ally was rapidly declining in strength and its long-term survival was increasingly in doubt. It is not a matter of the weaker states allying against the strongest. Rather, it is a case of the most aggressive state gambling that it still had the strength to break out of the diplomatic encirclement that it had itself created. No one else wanted war in Europe in 1914, but had war forced upon them by Germany. Britain's government would have collapsed had it attempted to enter the war prior to 3 August, but Germany's invasion of Belium united British opinion around supporting the Belgians. Germany never realized that the poor strategic position they were in was a direct result of their own actions."

Germany in 1914 was probable the world's strongest power. It had the second-largest economy, the world's best army (and only Russia's was bigger), and the second largest navy. WWI proved that Germany was MUCH stronger than either Britain, France, or Russia individually. Basically, the way I view the Triple Entente reasons for warring with Germany are those:

France - still stupidly bitter about Alsace-Lorraine. Blaming Germans for their own decline and naively thinking that Germany's defeat would allow France to reclaim the #1 slot in Europe.

Russia - hostile against Austria and Germany is Austria's ally. Also, blames Germany for blocking Russia Westwards expansion in the Balkans.

Britain - more or less knows that its days on the top are numbered. The only question is whether US or Germany will replace it as a top dog. British thinking is that Germany's rise to prominance, will necessarily mean Britain's destruction or plunge into irrelevance, due to Germany's "agressive nature" and autocratic government. Meanwhile, US rise to the position of world's top dog would still allow for Britain to retain a lot of influence and colonies, given the two countries similiar values and American traditional isolationist policy. Thus, Germany must be stopped, while nothing should be done about American rise.
 
Dec 23, 2001
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Immediately after WW1 it was the fashion to place the blame on Germany. In the 1960s this thinking was replaced with the idea that it was all just a horrible inevitability. Much of the reasoning behind this thinking was a denigration of the European Great powers. More recent Great War scholarship is pointing to the idea that Germany was certainly spoiling for a fight, if not in 1914 then sometime soon after.

Regarding the American naval rivalry to Britain. At the time America was seen as firmly isolationist and with no plans to extend her sphere of influence beyond the Pacific whereas Germany had a track record for starting conflicts in Europe and was extremely vocal about wanting to expand into Africa. This is why the americans were not seen as such a threat. Plus the American navy, though expanding, was still absolutely no match for the Royal Navy at this point.

Incidentally the Boer war had precious little to do with all this. The Boers were a minority who fought the British partly because they wanted more autonomy and partly because they were pissed off that the British took a far dimmer view of the joys of slavery than they did. The idea that the alliance system, which was largely a stand off between France/Russia and Austria/Germany was caused by British Imperialism is rubbish.
 

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Rubbish

No nation was to blame... Only Kings and Emperors. Everyone except perhaps the French, Brittish, and Italian leaders were spoiling for a fight. The question of who was to blame is ludicrous. Nobody was to blame for the entire war. Each case should be examined one at a time. The only debatable question in my opinion is, "Who was the stupidist?"
 
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German navy was no match for a British navy either, there was a much greater differece between British and German navy, than German and American navy. At that time, US already dominated Western Hemisphere and was in the process of elminitating the British influence there. Plus, Pacific is and was much more important strategically and economically than Africa. So I do not see why British did not regard Americans as a threat - pretty stupid of them.
 

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An intersting question would have been:

What would have ahppened if Germany didn't implement the Schiliffen (sp?) Plan and march through Belgium, but attacked through Lorraine and across the Rhine? Would the British eventually have joined the war because of the balance of power? (The British sought to preventt continental hedgemony, which would more or less happen should the Germans beat the French into the ground)
 
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I'm not saying they did not entirely regard the Americans as a threat but Germany practised an actively expansionist foreign policy and was openly hostile to Britain's allies. Plus, with all due respect, at this time America was by no means the economic powerhouse it was to become. Plus the American army was pretty derisory. When the Americans entered WW1 they actually found they had to turn to the British and French to provide them with arms and supplies in some cases. In the 1920's all this changed and there were tensions between Britain and America (after WW1 America believed it's next war would be against Britain) but at the time Germany was seen as the greater threat by far and rightly so.
 
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By 1910, US GDP was bigger than that of Germany, Britain ,and France combined and its share of world GDP was bigger than it is right now (being somewhere around 31% vs 20% right now). So it certainly was an economic powerhouse.

Can you give me examples of Germany's expansionist policy, outside of Moroccan crises?
 

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Originally posted by Shadowstrike
An intersting question would have been:

What would have ahppened if Germany didn't implement the Schiliffen (sp?) Plan and march through Belgium, but attacked through Lorraine and across the Rhine? Would the British eventually have joined the war because of the balance of power? (The British sought to preventt continental hedgemony, which would more or less happen should the Germans beat the French into the ground)

Or better yet, never declair war on France, destroy Russia in months, then declair war on France the next year using the Schiliffen plan.
 

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Originally posted by Johnny Canuck


The British were by no means the worst colonizer. Contrast, for example, the treatment of Native Americans in the American West and in the Canadian West. The worst colony in Africa was the Beglian Congo. If my memory serves me right, the Germans initiated a couple of massacres of native Africans in their African colonies in the last years before 1914. The scrambe for Africa was no more the fault of the British than it was of the French, Germans, Italians, etc. The British weren't perfect colonial masters, but tended to be less bloodthirsty than most others. Britain's war against the Boers (who again weren't British, but formerly Dutch Calvinists) didn't require a Casus Belli, as it was the supression of an internal rebellion, rather than the invasion of a foreign state. Not all that different, except in scope, from the US Civil War. Britain wasn't the first imperialist power (that "honour" goes to Spain & Portugal), nor were they the most oppressive. How are much of the early start up of tensions solely their own fault? I think that Britian has absolutely no responsibilty for the First World War. They merely reacted, in a rational way, to an aggressive state, dare I say war-mongering state, that threatened their very existence (due to the German fleet).

Just exactly how brainwashed are you??
The first Boer war ended in the 1870's, the second started in 1899. How could it be a suppression of an "internal matter" if the country had been independent all along?? It was a blatant invasion of a foreign state. It was a war fought for the sillest reason ever. Over British greed for gold.
Britain wasn't the most opressive? What the Belgians and the Germans did was peanuts compared to the British, who:
invented concentration camps
used scortched earth tactics to win a war it didnt need to fight
had 20,000 women and children die in concentration camps
faced rebellions by the locals in every single colony. Even Belgium and Germany didn't mismanage so bad!

British less bloodthirsty? Yeah, right.. you need to reread your history there mate.. Britain in the 1800's to 1914 or thereabouts is the most bloodthristy nation on the planet.

And since when did Britain have a god given right to have the only decent navy around eh? Im looking back and trying to remember, but for the life of me I cannot remember God coming down from heaven and saying "thou shalt not have a navy if thou are not British"

Heck, if I were Germany in 1914 and you were Britain and telling me that I can't have a fleet "because" then I'd build a fleet to slap you just "because". The arguement that the German fleet building started this is complete bollocks. If there's even a shred of credibility to the fleet theory then the blame must be placed on the British for thinking they are God's gift to the seas.

Btw: The Belgian congo was actually an exemplary colony in many ways, its only real shortfall was in the inability of the Belgians into including the locals into their structure there.. os when they left the whole place collapsed overnight. But until then, it was amongst the best managed colonies in the world.
 

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Originally posted by Produce Pete
And since when did Britain have a god given right to have the only decent navy around eh? Im looking back and trying to remember, but for the life of me I cannot remember God coming down from heaven and saying "thou shalt not have a navy if thou are not British"

As far as I understand it the problem with Germanys naval program , in British eyes , was there was no plausible reason for it but to sink the British navy.The British needed a very large navy to protect their trade with their extensive empire.Germany , despite the ambitions of some during 'the scramble for Africa' didn't have a colonial obligation on anything like the same scale as Britain.As a consequence the German Navys ferocious expansion does seem agressive.

It is questionable , but certainly not complete bollocks as you suggest.I dont think nations are inclined to commit so much of their resources to build ships of vast expense just because they like ships.It is safe to proceed with the assumption that they are doing it for a reason.We know for certain why the British were so attached to their own vast navy and that is to protect their wealth.
 

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Originally posted by Bourbon
German navy was no match for a British navy either, there was a much greater differece between British and German navy, than German and American navy. At that time, US already dominated Western Hemisphere and was in the process of elminitating the British influence there. Plus, Pacific is and was much more important strategically and economically than Africa. So I do not see why British did not regard Americans as a threat - pretty stupid of them.

Well the German navy proved to be quite a match for the British navy , well trained crews , good officers , excellent naval architecture and ship design.Take a look at Jutland , thats a pretty useful example I think.As far as the British not viewing the US navy in the Pacific as a threat , I imagine they probably did in terms of war planning , but politically there was much less tension with the US and from an economic perspective the British seemed content for the US to expand its economic influence into SE Asia and S.America.I have no doubt that they would of liked to have prevented this , but I suspect that even as the preeminent world power the British understood the limits of that power.You can't do everything.
 

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Originally posted by Produce Pete

Btw: The Belgian congo was actually an exemplary colony in many ways, its only real shortfall was in the inability of the Belgians into including the locals into their structure there.. os when they left the whole place collapsed overnight. But until then, it was amongst the best managed colonies in the world.

Oh yah... well run all right. Over a ten year periond the country droped 10,000,000 in population. That means they actually lost alot more then 10 mil because of the children born in that period. They didn't die from some civil war after the Belgians left. They died in slave labor for Belgian companies. Very well managed, just for the wrong purposes.
 
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Originally posted by Fromtia


As far as I understand it the problem with Germanys naval program , in British eyes , was there was no plausible reason for it but to sink the British navy.The British needed a very large navy to protect their trade with their extensive empire.Germany , despite the ambitions of some during 'the scramble for Africa' didn't have a colonial obligation on anything like the same scale as Britain.As a consequence the German Navys ferocious expansion does seem agressive.

It is questionable , but certainly not complete bollocks as you suggest.I dont think nations are inclined to commit so much of their resources to build ships of vast expense just because they like ships.It is safe to proceed with the assumption that they are doing it for a reason.We know for certain why the British were so attached to their own vast navy and that is to protect their wealth.

Once again, Americans needed a large navy just as little as the Germans did, their empires were about the same size. Plus, Germany could be easily blockaded (as did happen in WWI),while US probably could not be due to its sheer size and distance from Europe. AND German was not self-sufficient by that time, it needed imports almost as much as Britain. So it did need a navy in case of the war. Thus, Germany needed a large fleet probably more than US, so it would be hyprocritical for British to "forbid" them this. I completely agree with Produce Pete on this.

I must sayt that German's hated the Russians and despised the French, but their atitude towards Britain was much more ambiguos (something akin to love-hate). German intention was not to overthrow the British empire, but to become more dominant in Europe, cut Russia in size, and obtain a colonial empire proportional to its strenth. Obviously, that would indirectly weaken the British empire, but Germany never did intend to actually invade British Isles or anything like that.

So yes, Germany was agressive and ambitions, but so was every other European nation and US. The difference was that only Germany was simultaneously dissatisfied with the status quo (unlike the British or US) and had the power to change it (unlike the French or Russians), thus -it ended up being encircled and made a skapegoat.
 

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Originally posted by Bourbon
German navy was no match for a British navy either, there was a much greater differece between British and German navy, than German and American navy. At that time, US already dominated Western Hemisphere and was in the process of elminitating the British influence there. Plus, Pacific is and was much more important strategically and economically than Africa. So I do not see why British did not regard Americans as a threat - pretty stupid of them.

Actually, the Pacific was not all that important to the British. That is why they signed the alliance treaty with Japan in 1902, so that the Royal Navy could be deployed to more valuable sectors. The most important sea zones for the British was the "Imperial Lifeline" from England, via Gibralter, through the Mediterranean and Suez, through the Red and Arabian Seas to India. After that, the Atlantic, for wheat from Canada & beef from Argentina. Only after that does the Pacific come into play. There were no major British trade or supply routes through the Pacific. The naval base at Esquimalt, BC, and the squadron based there, were all but eliminated in about 1905, because they really didn't defend any vital British interests.
 

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Originally posted by Bourbon


Once again, Americans needed a large navy just as little as the Germans did, their empires were about the same size. Plus, Germany could be easily blockaded (as did happen in WWI),while US probably could not be due to its sheer size and distance from Europe. AND German was not self-sufficient by that time, it needed imports almost as much as Britain. So it did need a navy in case of the war. Thus, Germany needed a large fleet probably more than US, so it would be hyprocritical for British to "forbid" them this. I completely agree with Produce Pete on this.

Actually, the Germans never really needed a large fleet. During the Franco-Prussian War, the French fleet blockaded what few Prussian naval vessels there were in port for the duration. It didn't do them much good while the Prussians lay seige to Paris. As Churchill said, for the Germans, their fleet is a luxury.

I must sayt that German's hated the Russians and despised the French, but their atitude towards Britain was much more ambiguos (something akin to love-hate). German intention was not to overthrow the British empire, but to become more dominant in Europe, cut Russia in size, and obtain a colonial empire proportional to its strenth. Obviously, that would indirectly weaken the British empire, but Germany never did intend to actually invade British Isles or anything like that.

Although the Germans hated the Russians, the feeling was not mutual. The Russians had no real reason to hate the Germans. Indeed, the Russians had more reason to hate the British, who historically blocked the Russians from their goals of Constantinople and piercing the Northwest Frontier in Afghanistan.

The German intention was to overthrow the British Empire; it was Weltpolitik, not Europe-politik. The goal was to defeat the British Empire, and replace it as the dominant empire, both in Europe and overseas. No, the Germans did not (as far as I am aware) seriously consider the logistics of invading Britain, but they never had to. However, merely controlling the waters around Britiain would have been sufficient to bring the nation to its knees in a matter of weeks. A Germany that had fulfilled its Weltpolitik goals would have resulted in a situation where the British would only exist on the sufferance of the Germans. They would have lived with a knife forever at their throat. Again, the analogy with Soviet missiles in Cuba in '62. Intolerable for any nation with even a threat of self-respect.
 
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Originally posted by Produce Pete


Just exactly how brainwashed are you??
The first Boer war ended in the 1870's, the second started in 1899. How could it be a suppression of an "internal matter" if the country had been independent all along?? It was a blatant invasion of a foreign state. It was a war fought for the sillest reason ever. Over British greed for gold.
Britain wasn't the most opressive? What the Belgians and the Germans did was peanuts compared to the British, who:
invented concentration camps
used scortched earth tactics to win a war it didnt need to fight
had 20,000 women and children die in concentration camps
faced rebellions by the locals in every single colony. Even Belgium and Germany didn't mismanage so bad!

British less bloodthirsty? Yeah, right.. you need to reread your history there mate.. Britain in the 1800's to 1914 or thereabouts is the most bloodthristy nation on the planet.

And since when did Britain have a god given right to have the only decent navy around eh? Im looking back and trying to remember, but for the life of me I cannot remember God coming down from heaven and saying "thou shalt not have a navy if thou are not British"

Heck, if I were Germany in 1914 and you were Britain and telling me that I can't have a fleet "because" then I'd build a fleet to slap you just "because". The arguement that the German fleet building started this is complete bollocks. If there's even a shred of credibility to the fleet theory then the blame must be placed on the British for thinking they are God's gift to the seas.

Btw: The Belgian congo was actually an exemplary colony in many ways, its only real shortfall was in the inability of the Belgians into including the locals into their structure there.. os when they left the whole place collapsed overnight. But until then, it was amongst the best managed colonies in the world.

Firstly, we should leave out the personal comments. We may have widely differing opinions, but that is no reason to be denigrate each other.

Secondly, the Boer Republics were not independent between the First and the Second Boer Wars. Britain still retained authority over the Republics for foreign and military affairs. It was an internal matter, as the Boers never left the British Empire. Self-governing perhaps, but not independent. Hence, it was a rebellion, not a conflict between two independent states. Also, while gold was part of the reason, there was also the matter of political rights. The Afrikaner population prevented all non-Afrikaners from voting, holding substantial property, owning firearms, etc. Thus, you had a situation where the Afrikaners ruled a lower class of non-Afrikaners who had no political rights, to say nothing of the native Africans. The British may have had their faults in their South African policy, but they were certainly more enlightened than the Boers.

Thirdly, the British did not, at any time, invent concentration camps. Not one Boer man, woman, or child was sent to these camps in the belief that they would die. No one was worked to death, no one was denied proper food and shelter. What happened was that the army lacked the medical personal for such large camps, and disease tooks its tool. Once London realized the extent of the problem, steps were taken to rectify the situation.

Forthly, the "scorched earth" tactics were a legitmate tool of war against an enemy that was as ruthless as they were elusive. War, by definition, is harsh and cruel, as much for civilians as for combatents. But the actions of the British were both justified by military necessities and standards common for the time, and paled in comparison to the German actions in its occupied territories in the First World War.

Fifthly, the British did not, ever, face rebellions in all of its colonies. With the exception of the United States and the questionable case of Ireland (was it a colony or not), no colony of the British Empire ever had to resort to military arms in order to win independence. South Africa, India, Australia, Canada, the African colonies, the colonies of Southeast Asia, all were granted independence by Britain, as opposed to independence being forced on Britain by the weight of arms. Yes, there were rebellions from time to time, but these tended to be minor (as in Canada) or limited to a small minority of the colonial population (as in the Indian Mutiny).

Sixthly, the British, in my opinion, was the least oppressive imperial nation in the 1800s. In each of their colonies, they attempted to establish political institutions and respect for the rule of law that would both assist the functioning of the colonial government and help the colony if it reached independence. Britain led the way in banning the slave trade and slavery, and spent decades patrolling the coast of Africa, at substantial expense, to finally bring a halt to the slave trade. The British Empire certainly wasn't perfect, but it did a lot of good in its day.

Seventhly, I never argued that only Britain had a right to build a navy. I would argue that only for Britain was the navy the single most vital component of national defence. Say France were to suddenly create a 3 million man army, with the latest artillery and weaponry, and place it on the west bank of the Rhine. Would the Germans be entitled to build up a similar army to defend themselves? Of course they would. The situation with the fleets was no differnt. Germany built a fleet that was a dagger pointed at the heart of Britain. Britain had every right to respond by defending itself. Britain never said that no country could have a navy, merely that no country could have a navy that could gain naval superiority around the British Isles. This is a perfectly acceptable and rational view for the British, as for them the sea was life itself.

I won't talk about your comments on the Belgian Congo, as another poster has already covered it.

I apologize for writing such a lengthy response, but, as you can tell, I have a certain degree of passion for this issue, and could not allow these assertions to go unchallenged.
 

Richard Hakluyt

Lord of the Wineglass
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Mar 10, 2001
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There is an unfortunate tendency to equate the British concentration camps in South Africa with the German ones in WW2 because of the name. The plan in SA was to end the support for the Boer guerillas by interning their civilian supporters, it worked but unfortunately many civilians died. What is not generally known is that casualties from illness and disease were also very high in British army camps. In one camp 20% of the troops died from typhus (maybe some other disease, I'm not sure). Both these states of affairs caused huge scandals back in Britain and many people volunteered for medical and other duties in the camps. So, its incompetence and the state of medicine at the time, not some evil British plan for a "final solution".

Regarding the fleets. Britain was not that interested in the pacific. There were two important parts to the Empire, namely the Dominions (Canada, Australia, South Africa and NZ) and the Indian Empire, the rest was just window-dressing. A lot of naval policy was devoted to securing the route to India. Britain was quite willing to hand responsibility for the Pacific to Japan, and later to the USA, the growth of US seapower helped a declining power to concentrate on its core interests.
The Germans had few overseas bases and few colonial interests. The German fleet had only one real use, to threaten Britain, every time they built a battleship we felt obliged to build two. In the end we turned to France to counter the German threat.
I'm not saying that the Germans were the bad guy in all this. All these imperialist powers were basically pursuing their own interests. But German diplomacy from the dropping of Bismarck to the start of WW1 was lamentable, in the end it involved them in a war with most of the rest of the world, their only allies a couple of moribund empires.