• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Showing developer posts only. Show all posts in this thread.

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
47
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
Originally posted by Bourbon
"Actually, the Germans never really needed a large fleet. During the Franco-Prussian War, the French fleet blockaded what few Prussian naval vessels there were in port for the duration. It didn't do them much good while the Prussians lay seige to Paris. As Churchill said, for the Germans, their fleet is a luxury. "

Just because Germans didn't need a navy in a short war, doesn't mean they wouldn't need one in a protracted war. PLus, by 1914 after the Second Industrial revolution, most European countries (save for Russia) had to export heavily to obtain needed materials and foodstuffs missing from their own small territories. Thus, the situation would have been very different than in 1870.

I believe that if Germans would have built a navy equal to the British by 1914, they would have won the war, since they would have prevented their own blockaded (which did hurt them unlike the French one in 1870) AND might have prevented vital American shipments to the allies.


You assume a lot. I ask you this if the Germans had built a fleet equal to the British fleet could they have still have had such a powerful army. The answer is no me thinks. Secondly if Germany had kept Britain out of the war Britain would have used its fleet to ensure free trade rather than blockade Germany. After all why only trade with one side when you can double your profits by trading with both.
 

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
47
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
The difference between 1871 and 1914 was that Germany could ask France for colonial gains if she won the war. This would give the Germans their place in the sun and give them bases to become a greater threat to British interests.
 

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
47
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
I would like to throw in a few things here. Prior to about 1900, Britain saw its main enemies as France and Russia, and it was a colonial rivalry, not a continental one. This was still the era of splendid isolation of the British government, but during this time Britain did try to reach some sort of understanding with Germany to be able to use them against France and Russia. As an example of this I point to the Fashodia incident of 1896, which nearly brought France and Britain to war.

What changed after this was German policy. After 1871 Bismarck had pursued a policy of satiation, Germany was no threat to anyone because it had all the territory it needed. The Kaiser Wilhelm I despite being a bit odd (although not technically insane) was still willing to follow his advice. The change in German policy begins in 1888 when Wilhelm the II comes to the throne. He is also a bit odd; such oddities include his fetish of military uniforms and women’s arms. There were also homosexual scandals involving people close the Kaiser (the Prussia society frowned upon these things), although the Kaiser was not involved (and he was willing to blow the brains out of any newspaper editor who implied otherwise). However the most important of the Kaiser’s oddities (well for this debate anyway) was his obsession with proving how tough he was. He always used to sit on the hard chair even when a soft one was available, he used to boast about how he kept a loaded gun next to his bed and used to wear rings with the stones turned inwards to hurt people when he shook hands with him (the Kaiser thought that this would make him seem tough). You ask why do I tell you all of this? The point his that the Kaiser was not a constitutional monarch (in the modern sense), no the Germans had build a political and military machine of such awesome efficiency where the Kaiser was the only loose cog.

Thus when a Kaiser comes to the throne with and imperial sized chip on his shoulder which advisors he going to listen to. The ones who say lets go nice and gently and be nice to people or the ones that same Germany will be great (and by reflection the Kaiser) if it builds a fleet, gets colonies and builds a huge army. No the problem was that the Kaiser was willing to listen to the wrong advisors. Germany could have been in a far better position in 1914 if she had been so aggressive on the world stage prior to this. The fleet construction programme is the case in point. The programme was not just to build a few ships it was an undertaking to build 4 battleships every year until 1921 (I might have numbers wrong). Looking at that I cannot see how anyone can say the Germans were building these because they needed them, why build so many for so long? It could only have been directed at someone (namely Britain). For me the German government must carry a lot of the responsibility because its whole government policy seemed to be aimed at making enemies. This was because the government was lead by a man who had a massive inferiority complex.
 

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
47
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
Produce Pete,

Well I am glad you are being totally unbiased in your interpretation of history. The colour bar, yes it did exist but it is not as bad as you imply, Congress party members had been elected to Westminster since the 1890’s using the Labour ticket. The Cape colony was given a totally colour blind constitution by Westminster, but it was the Cape parliament that subverted it. Similarly the purpose of the Union of South Africa was to create a state with enough white people in it that they would not feel threatened with giving equal power to the black people. When this had clearly failed the Westminster government kept the Colonies of Rhodesia and Nyasaland and the Protectorates of Bechuanaland, Basuetoland and Swaziland out of the union.

In the second Anglo-Boer war both the Oranje Vrijstaat and the ZAR where keen to fight so laying it all at the door of the British is quite inexplicable in my opinion. On the matter of independence it is all a matter of opinion. Wars have been fought for less justification so why don’t you get stuck into all of them first before beating the anti colonial drum. It was not a clear case of right and wrong but since when did that matter. Don’t be so naïve life it is not a matter of black and white.
 

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
47
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
Originally posted by Dark Knight

Apartheid was instituted by the Boer-dominated National Party after World War II.

The Boer dominated Nation Party did win the 1948 election South Africa and start what we know as Apartheid. Prior to this the governments where not exactly particularly fair to the non-white residents of South Africa. Ghandi started his political career campaigning for equal rights in South Africa.
 

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
47
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
Originally posted by Bourbon


Once again, so what that the Germans were building a navy - so did US and Japan, at almost the same speed! And Russians and (occasionally) French had a larger army! And Germany wanted to ALLY with Britain, not invade it, there was almost a German-British entente in 1901 or 1902 that did not take place solely cause Germans wanted a "commitment". And yes, after Britain joined the Entente with French, the Germans BEGAN to look at them as enemies, but hey - it was only natural!

Germany did not want to ally with Britain; Britain wanted to ally with Germany. Germany snubbed all attempts by Britain to improve relations. Remember half the ruling class in Britain were Germans, prior to 1914 the royal family was very proud of their German heritage. However there is nothing like the combination of good war and that most royal instinct of self-preservation to bring out the Britishness in the family.

On the fleet construction programme. What did America need a fleet for? To defend their long coastline. What did Japan need a fleet for? To defend their long coastline. What did Germany need a huge fleet for? I leave you to answer.

The French army did come pretty close to the German army, but only by calling up a massive amount of men. The Germans could of called up the same percentage of manpower for their standing army but was unwilling to do so. Party because a massive expansion in the army would have require the dilution of the aristocracies privilege in the officer corps and secondly an expanded call up would have required the call up of the industrial working classes. this would have diluted the power of the army as a means to suppress urban disturbances. The pre-war German army called up its conscription classes almost exclusively from rural areas.
 

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
47
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
Originally posted by Fromtia


Well I think there was a bit more too it than the rather innocent notion that they had long coastlines to defend.Both the USA and Japan had colonial ambitions , or foreign economic interests - investments they wanted to make quite sure would be safe from molestation.Much the same as the British.I think this is what the Germans wanted their navy for as well.Although as we discussed quite thoroughly we all know where that was going to lead.

I do agree with this. However think about this way, you are a European government looking at the German, Japanese and American fleet construction programmes. Now all three are building large amount of ships. I suggest you think about using these two questions, which country do you feel most threatened by and which country is most likely to be building a fleet out of proportion to the demands that will be place on it.
 

King

Part Time Game Designer
11 Badges
Dec 7, 2001
12.504
30
47
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
In the end the what the German Naval build up did was take the most powerful neutral in Europe and drove it into the French camp. This made the situation more volatile. It made Germany more desperate and made France and Russia bolder. This added more fuel to an already combustible situation. For me the Germans where already in a hole and just decided to keep digging.