is espionage idea group actually bad?

[Less2]

Fabricating claims is tedious and micro-intensive. I want an idea group that lets me do it less, not one that encourages me to do it more. Influence is already a great idea group and cuts 50% from the dip cost on war demands, and Religious CB is an option otherwise.

Late game effects are... late game. Really, take whatever you like for your 6th+ idea groups, they are all rather situational.

It's not bad like Expansion is bad, but it's mediocre and arguably not worth the investment even if you have a free idea group. At least it's fairly frontloaded with the good things though.

 

[Incompetent]

Some people don't like Espionage ideas because they're not a fan of spy actions or find them underpowered; that's a genuine criticism, but a more complex balance issue to sort out (if you make spy actions too easy to exploit for a given player, they get absolutely ridiculous when one country is getting dumped on by multiple players/AIs). But there are some definite disappointments in Espionage even if we take as given the strength of spy actions. These should be easier for the devs to fix:

1. The claim fabrication discount is additive with the modifier for existing claims. So instead of claims on the same country costing 20, 25, 30 etc, they cost 15, 20, 25 etc. It's nice for getting that first claim a bit quicker, but really disappointing when claim-spamming someone (which ought to be Espionage's strength before the late game). If it was 3/4 of the total cost, so 15, 18.75, 22.5, 26.25, 30 etc, that would be a bit more satisfying as a bonus. Also, the ability to chain claims off each other (like the Age of Discovery ability) would make claim spamming that much more practical.

2. For all spy actions except for fabricating claims and supporting rebels, the only advantage it gives is faster network construction. This is very underwhelming if you like to steal maps, sow discontent etc - the Espionage group is of only marginal benefit for these things. It would be nice if it also unlocked them at earlier tech levels and/or made them cheaper (so you were less vulnerable to getting detected before having the chance to use them).

 

[makaramus]

Some people don't like Espionage ideas because they're not a fan of spy actions or find them underpowered; that's a genuine criticism, but a more complex balance issue to sort out (if you make spy actions too easy to exploit for a given player, they get absolutely ridiculous when one country is getting dumped on by multiple players/AIs). But there are some definite disappointments in Espionage even if we take as given the strength of spy actions. These should be easier for the devs to fix:

1. The claim fabrication discount is additive with the modifier for existing claims. So instead of claims on the same country costing 20, 25, 30 etc, they cost 15, 20, 25 etc. It's nice for getting that first claim a bit quicker, but really disappointing when claim-spamming someone (which ought to be Espionage's strength before the late game). If it was 3/4 of the total cost, so 15, 18.75, 22.5, 26.25, 30 etc, that would be a bit more satisfying as a bonus. Also, the ability to chain claims off each other (like the Age of Discovery ability) would make claim spamming that much more practical.

2. For all spy actions except for fabricating claims and supporting rebels, the only advantage it gives is faster network construction. This is very underwhelming if you like to steal maps, sow discontent etc - the Espionage group is of only marginal benefit for these things. It would be nice if it also unlocked them at earlier tech levels and/or made them cheaper (so you were less vulnerable to getting detected before having the chance to use them).

IT JUST GIVES 5 DISCOUNT ON FABRICATE! OH MY GOD NOW I AM DISAPPOINTED -_-

 

[Incompetent]

IT JUST GIVES 5 DISCOUNT ON FABRICATE! OH MY GOD NOW I AM DISAPPOINTED -_-

Yep. I took it because I was struggling to make enough claims, and now every time I look at my diplomatic mapmodes (especially the AE one), I think "should have taken Diplomatic :'(".

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

It's not 'bad' depending on the situation. It's far from an optimal group when pushing the game to its limits however. It's another one of those idea groups where everything in it is decent, it just doesn't have anything that makes it a must pick in a mass conquest context. I like reduced corruption(Nice when playing ROTW, or when debasing currency for interest free loans),decreased liberty desire(great for a strictly tall colonist game, or if you are feeding vassals faster than you are producing prestige) and adviser cost (it's worth reevaluation with the advent of +5 advisers). Provincial trade power, embargo efficiency and privateer efficiency are all great in tall games where you share your node(Historical Portugal).

All in all, it's good for a tall game, especially a tall colonist game. Not so good for WC, but that's OK. There are better things to pick but it is a fun group, and it's not terrible like Maritime and Naval.

 

[Incompetent]

decreased liberty desire(great for a strictly tall colonist game, or if you are feeding vassals faster than you are producing prestige)

The -10% LD works as advertised, but it's worth considering that +2 diprep gives -6% LD in addition to its other bonuses. So the advantage Espionage has here over Diplomatic/Influence is slight.

All in all, it's good for a tall game, especially a tall colonist game. Not so good for WC, but that's OK. There are better things to pick but it is a fun group, and it's not terrible like Maritime and Naval.

Maritime isn't too bad if you're aggressively churning out light ships, which it sounds like you should be in your 'tall colonist' game where you care about things like privateer efficiency.

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

The -10% LD works as advertised, but it's worth considering that +2 diprep gives -6% LD in addition to its other bonuses. So the advantage Espionage has here over Diplomatic/Influence is slight.

I don't even know if it really does give a slight advantage there. With either Dip or Influence you can raise relations quicker which means you're spending less time keeping your subjects happy. With Diplomatic you're saving dip points that you can funnel into more development which helps with liberty desire. You can also integrate vassals quicker, so less time is spend with a high combined strength of subjects. If there is any advantage it is slimmer than the 4% the obvious math would point out.

Unless you're playing a very specific way I wouldn't say Espionage has any worthwhile advantage over Diplomatic/Influence. If you are playing that very specific way then when taken as a whole it does things those two groups can't, namely make money in a couple different ways and make it easier to use espionage actions. It's only good if you set yourself up to use it just so, but if that is your goal it does work well.

Maritime isn't too bad if you're aggressively churning out light ships, which it sounds like you should be in your 'tall colonist' game where you care about things like privateer efficiency.

I was laying out a situation where Espionage could be made to shine. I don't care about 'privateer efficiency' in my 'tall colonist game'.

Maritime is terrible in a way almost no other group could possibly be. The only worthwhile thing it does is make sure you have enough sailors to keep all your ships running. That's it. It's not that expensive to go over your ship FL, so why bother with a group that pretty much only gives you more cheap ships? I'm not going to run the numbers, but I'm very much willing to bet that Espionage gives a lot more money in the long run than whatever you might get from being able to afford a handful more light ships. It probably saves you more money from the adviser cost reduction alone.

Maritime is the worst idea group in the diplomatic column, and it's not even close.

With that said, there is nothing wrong with taking Maritime if that's what you want to do. If you are role playing Britannia Rules the Waves then knock yourself out.

 

[Badesumofu]

Maritime gives naval tradition which gives trade steering which can give you a lot of money if you have long merchant chains set up. Maneuver pips give you a significant amount of trade power, too.

But yeah, Maritime is a horribly weak idea group too. If you want to dominate trade with ships rather than with simply conquering all the provinces in your chain, then I can see a niche for it. But it's really one of those 'only if you have a very, very specific goal' groups.

 

[Calad]

As Ming I took espionage idea and support rebels CB was nice way to export Tributary system to Europe.