is espionage idea group actually bad?

[makaramus]

I started to question myself by this lately...
first of all idea group makes it easier to claim land around you making them %10 cheaper to core and diplo free to conquer.
at late game idea group also offering very intresting effects like reducing siege durations, reduce enemy man power recovery/recruit army
at late game you can remove fog of war and reduce enemy reputition to make his allies do not join war(wich is reducing number of sides in war is huge sometimes, imagine you convinced 2000 dev ottoman to do not join )

so I started to ask myself.... is it really bad idea group? or its just bad because its demanding micro game and we are lazy?

 

[darth254]

I think it can be a fun idea group, but early game the spy actions seem to be too limited (besides fabricating claims) to warrant getting it even for the laughs. even basic abilities like support rebels probably not worth the $$$ you have to spend in the early going.

if they maybe allowed earlier access to some of the actions, even the more innocent yet fun ones like infiltrate administration, I'd consider getting it early if I wanted to mix things up. I can only see myself picking it up on the fairly late side and that means less time to enjoy it

 

[tnlyons]

IMO most "bad" idea groups aren't bad. They just aren't as good as others. But as always your in game situation dictates what idea groups you'll take. If espionage sounds good for your play through and nothing else seems better then take espionage.

 

[makaramus]

IMO most "bad" idea groups aren't bad. They just aren't as good as others. But as always your in game situation dictates what idea groups you'll take. If espionage sounds good for your play through and nothing else seems better then take espionage.

actually bad means that not worth to pick it . why pick it while there is better option
yet %10 coring cost is actually ok combined with diplo cost discount also reducing corruption by passive means you can hold lands without coring while waiting your war exhaustion go down

 

[Cookiepie]

Depends to some extent on what you're trying to accomplish, eu4 is quite open-ended, but for most minim-max/wc/mp purposes its pretty bad yeah. The effects you're describing are, while useful, not very significant (hurting one enemy nation for a small amount when you most likely are stronger anyways, if the stronger interactions were available sooner it'd still be a useless grp, but less so) and not worth an idea group even if you do have the diplo time to spare.

 

[makaramus]

Depends to some extent on what you're trying to accomplish, eu4 is quite open-ended, but for most minim-max/wc/mp purposes its pretty bad yeah. The effects you're describing are, while useful, not very significant (hurting one enemy nation for a small amount when you most likely are stronger anyways, if the stronger interactions were available sooner it'd still be a useless grp, but less so) and not worth an idea group even if you do have the diplo time to spare.

I never mentioned rebel support if you noticed but instead other bonuses ^_^'''

 

[Jorlaan]

The adviser cost reduction, cheaper claims, spy strength, are all useful in their way along with the other things mentioned.
I play in more of a RP fashion, so I don't like taking lands I didn't claim first, so getting claims faster is nice.
The passive corruption reduction is quite nice too.

 

[grommile]

Espionage has to compete with Diplomatic, Influence, and Exploration, just like Expansion has to compete with Administrative and one-of-Religious-or-Humanist.

So in unrestrained SP, by the time you can justify taking it, the decision to take it is moot, because you are the indisputable hegemon.

 

[kramsikrams]

If espionage gave a better claim cb with reduced ae for provinces I can see myself taking it instead of influence

 

[Viktor Vaughn]

supporting rebels is hilarious if you have the cash to support it. definitely not the most efficient way to grow in the game, but it can be fun for RP purposes an just general shenanigans.

like others have said, it's not a terrible idea group, it's just that there are often better choices for just about any play style.

 

[Mrkew]

If claims reduced cc by 25% like they used to, it would be a much better group.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Espionage has to compete with Diplomatic, Influence, and Exploration, just like Expansion has to compete with Administrative and one-of-Religious-or-Humanist.

So in unrestrained SP, by the time you can justify taking it, the decision to take it is moot, because you are the indisputable hegemon.

Mostly true but the diplomat and liberty desire stuff make it an actually viable option in the late-game slots for SP (7th or so, maybe 6th if you do only 1 mil group). 5 diplomats is very helpful for chaining annexations, but can't compete with influence/diplomatic in SP. It can sometimes beat out exploration, since you can steal maps in the new world or get them from auto spread.

 

[gia257]

Espionage has to compete with Diplomatic, Influence, and Exploration, just like Expansion has to compete with Administrative and one-of-Religious-or-Humanist.

So in unrestrained SP, by the time you can justify taking it, the decision to take it is moot, because you are the indisputable hegemon.

just like expansion? expansion is crap, you may mean economic/innovative

 

[makaramus]

just like expansion? expansion is crap, you may mean economic/innovative

I aggree expansion is only good if you got exploration or if you are playing hre france game(because you cant pick exploration so you can colonize africa after conquering spain)

 

[Bouchart]

Early game, you have too few espionage actions to justify taking it. Late game, you don't need advanced espionage actions if you've been expanding properly.

It has a nice policy with Aristocratic if you are playing someone cavalry heavy.

 

[makaramus]

Early game, you have too few espionage actions to justify taking it. Late game, you don't need advanced espionage actions if you've been expanding properly.

It has a nice policy with Aristocratic if you are playing someone cavalry heavy.

at early game I belive it has an unique bonus compared to late game
at early game you need to fabricate claims or complate religius idea group to declare conquest wars (usually with some exceptions).
in this case being able to claim faster lets you declare wars faster , claim more land and save more monarch points.

at late game when you no longer need to have claims its giving its place to sow discontent and sabotage recruits/reputation to cripple enemies.

 

[Cookiepie]

I never mentioned rebel support if you noticed but instead other bonuses ^_^'''

My response was aimed at your comments regarding the other espionage actions.

 

[Badesumofu]

at early game I belive it has an unique bonus compared to late game
at early game you need to fabricate claims or complate religius idea group to declare conquest wars (usually with some exceptions).
in this case being able to claim faster lets you declare wars faster , claim more land and save more monarch points.

at late game when you no longer need to have claims its giving its place to sow discontent and sabotage recruits/reputation to cripple enemies.

Problem is that you can do all that without Espionage ideas. They just make it more efficient. It just means you might have an extra claim or two when you go to war which will save you a little bit, but not a lot. Influence ideas give you 50% discount on all unjustified demands which is going to save you more DIP. Diplomatic gives you no-CB wars for 1 stab. They're just better value (and it's not close) compared to Espionage ideas.

Espionage would not help me declare wars faster in the early game. I'm simply not constrained by my ability to get a CB. Diplo and Influence on the other hand do help with things like AE by which I can be constrained. Claiming more land is a small saving in MP but not at all comparable to what other, better groups are saving me.

The extra diplomat is nice. I might take it for that late in a game if I have a lot of integration to do. Being able to sabotage reputation or manpower somewhat more efficiently in the late game isn't really even something I'd be considering. The benefit is far too marginal for the points I'd be investing in the idea group. I simply don't need anymore military advantages over my enemies by that point.

It's not that it doesn't do anything useful. It's that it is utterly outclassed by other competing idea groups.

 

[Bouchart]

I might consider Espionage in multiplayer if I really wanted to troll someone.

 

[Dominion]

They save dip early, which you don't need, strengthen espionage actions lategame, which you don't need, etc.

Everything they're doing they're either doing at the wrong time or with the wrong resource.

Horrible. Barely over any ship-related idea group.