Is English Romance?

[Mr. Capiatlist]

That is, however, at least partially a weird kind of retro-purity thing. A lot of latinate words (earlier borrowed via french) were purposefully made to sound more "proper " (IE: As the english grammarians of the 17th and 18th centuries thought latin sounded)

A lot of the germanic and hyper-latin sounds are actually attempts to change words that had already existed in a more french form. (the word "perfect" is a good example)

Plus pronunciation shifts greatly anyway. Hell, get two people from opposite ends of the US together and you can already hear the differences building. Plus Non-rhoticity in some English dialects like in England and cities on the eastern seaboard of the US.

 

[Warial]

I disagree. The main theme to take away is "common decent". English is well documented back into the Old English. So, just as no matter how shark-like dolphins become they will never trace their ancestry through fish - always through mammals; so too English will never leap over to another branch of languages simply because it looks similar.


We're not dismissing it entirely, we're stating that it isn't the best and it certainly isn't the only - especially when it comes to English. The avalanche of incoming Romance words from French is very, very well documented. The Old English language is well attested and undeniably Germanic. The Middle English language is well attested and while very French looking, maintains its Germanic structure. The Modern English language has settled in a middle between looking Germanic and looking Romance, but at its core - both its grammar and the vast majority of the words that make up our day-to-day speech is Germanic. Remember, when the dictionaries say "30% of English comes from Latin" they include the piles upon piles of scientific and technical terms that are not actually used in the language except in niche environments.

On top of that, English often maintains a Germanic equivalent or two to many words from Latin roots. (A hearty welcome vs A cordial reception - these two phrases have the same meaning technically but show how Germanic vs Romance roots often differ in register.)

And on top of all that, as we've pointed out several times - vocab borrowing is huge part of the evolution of any language and English, though extreme, is hardly unique as a language with a large number of loan words. Hell, Latin has a bunch (mostly from Greek but also from Celtic and Germanic). Maltese is like 50% Italian, but is still a Semitic language.

So tl;dr - even if we use the "vocab is king" ruling, English remains Germanic. The core of our language is Germanic from baby's first words to the underlying grammatical structure. Is it the same Germanic language that it was in 1066? No.

You don't have to tell me about history of English language, I've been studying it for 3 years and most certainly I agree that English is a germanic language. I just wanted to note that vocabulary is far more important than you guys tended to write above (and I didn't mean borrowings since those have to be dimissed when classifying languages).

 

[Gordon410]

Whilst linguistics does contain some subjective judgements it is no more based on opinion than biology. The classification of languages, like biological classification, is based on criteria applied carefully to a range of factors. Like taxonomy there are multiple ways of classifying and different criteria will produce different results, but that is reflection of the nature of classification rather than due to a simple opinion. Linguistic classification is a complex, rigorous and often mathematical process that is not simply and expression of opinion.

If there is no opinion, how can I know for sure that English is only Germanic? There will always be that ten percent of Latin origin.

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

If there is no opinion, how can I know for sure that English is only Germanic? There will always be that ten percent of Latin origin.

Hmmm English may be categorized as Germanic(and mostly Germanic overall at that), but the romance effects are still there, and not just vocab. I've read some things that said the English method of putting the letter S at the end of plural words came about because of te French influence. So I wouldnt fret the black and white, this or that kind of labels. From the OP I can tell you have clearly read up on the subject, so what's the issue?

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Hmmm English may be categorized as Germanic(and mostly Germanic overall at that), but the romance effects are still there, and not just vocab. I've read some things that said the English method of putting the letter S at the end of plural words came about because of te French influence. So I wouldnt fret the black and white, this or that kind of labels. From the OP I can tell you have clearly read up on the subject, so what's the issue?

That's 100% Germanic, it came from Old English masculine singular genitive ending -es.

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

That's 100% Germanic, it came from Old English masculine singular genitive ending -es.

Oh I see, never mind that previous bit then.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Oops, I confused it with the Saxon genitive (apostrophe s). The plural -s came from masculine plural nominative -as, what I wrote was for the possessive 's.

 

[Seli]

If there is no opinion, how can I know for sure that English is only Germanic? There will always be that ten percent of Latin origin.

No-one said it is only germanic, just that it is a germanic language. English is germanic at its core, with some aspects of romance languages that modified it during the ages. A nice introduction, when one has far too much time on their hands , is the ongoing History of English podcast. Which explores the development of modern English through the centuries.

 

[Gordon410]

I believe you could write something meaningful using no Romance words, but the opposite is not true

Is English Germanic because of Germanic dominance?

 

[Warial]

Is English Germanic because of Germanic dominance?

It is Germanic because its roots are Germanic. Romance adstratum doesn't change language classifcation.

 

[Gordon410]

It is Germanic because its roots are Germanic. Romance adstratum doesn't change language classifcation.

Seems to me like adstratum should change language classification. Keep Germanic classification and add Romance as well.

 

[Warial]

Seems to me like adstratum should change language classification. Keep Germanic classification and add Romance as well.

Ehhh. It doesn't work like that, it simply doesn't. A language has one primary ancestor, one proto-language. The ancestor of English is Proto-Germanic and so it is in germanic group. Any further influences only impact further branches it is placed in. It is West Germanic since it shares common developments with Dutch and Dutch, but which aren't present in say Swedish. And it goes further through Ingvaeonic and Anglo-Frisian branches until finally reaching Anglic.

English is a language with strong Romance influences, but it is not Romance language itself. And a language cannot be both Romance and Germanic, because that's the convention estabilished among linguists.

 

[Gordon410]

I think that whereas English has more words deriving from latin and french in its vocabulary, the basic words and phrase structure is germanic, therefore it's classified as a germanic language.

Again, it appears that the argument is this: English is Germanic because it is mostly Germanic.

 

[Henry IX]

Again, it appears that the argument is this: English is Germanic because it is mostly Germanic.

English is Germanic because the features that linguists use to classify languages are shared with Germanic rather than Romance languages. The fact that it has huge numbers of borrowings from French does not make it Romance. It lacks many of the basic features of Romance language such as universally gendered nouns and a large number of tenses that modify the verbs conditionally on other factors such as possession and gender (English only has two verb forms, a past and present).

The argument that English could be considered some form of creole has been made by some linguists, but has been largely rejected because creoles are marked by simplified grammar and limited vocabulary compared with their parent languages. English grammar has become more complex over its evolution rather than simpler and the French borrowings have largely added to English's vocabulary rather than substituting. As such most linguists view the Romance vocabulary as borrowings rather than a genuine creole.

 

[Gordon410]

Wholesale borrowing of vocabulary isn't that rare as you say, Korean and Japanese borrowed a huge amount of vocabulary from Chinese, which outnumber the native vocabulary, but their grammatical structures were largely native and unaffected, so we don't classify them as Chinese descendants.

Good point. I guess my question now is why vocabulary, etymology, and adstratum are completely ignored when classifying languages.

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

Good point. I guess my question now is why vocabulary, etymology, and adstratum are completely ignored when classifying languages.

?? Who is ignoring those things though? Anyone who knows anything about the history of the English language is aware of them, and acknowledges them. If your asking why people say Germanic instead of a paragraph long description, goin into gross detail with many qualifiers, it is for speed and practicality for every day conversation..

It seems people keep answering your question, so you just keep rephrasing it.

 

[Gordon410]

If your asking why people say Germanic instead of a paragraph long description, goin into gross detail with many qualifiers, it is for speed and practicality for every day conversation..

Again, I don't disagree with English being Germanic. But do not say it is Romance because of vocab, etymology, and adstratum. Why ignore the minority?

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Good point. I guess my question now is why vocabulary, etymology, and adstratum are completely ignored when classifying languages.

Vocabulary is too mobile and transient for classification. For example, a medieval British peasant-born kid might be speaking with >90% Germanic vocabulary, but if he left his hueshipfamily and took the vows or became a squire, then in a few years he might be speaking with ~30% Romance vocabulary even in casual speech. On the other hand, while he might have learnt Norman or Latin, their grammar are unlikely to seep into his Ænglisc much.

*borrowing of grammar can happen, but much rarer.

And ancestry requires continuity, we see Old and Middle English records acquiring more and more Latinate vocabulary, eventually leading to Modern English, instead of Anglo-Norman acquiring more and more Germanic grammar, so that's that.

 

[Gordon410]

Vocabulary

"Why not the vocabulary?"

You: "Because vocabulary is not a good determination of language origin because it is too mobile and transient for classification."

I: "Well, what is a good determination of language origin?"

You: "Grammar."

I: "But you cannot ignore the minority which is the vocabulary."

You: "No one is ignoring the minority."

I: "You are by ignoring vocabulary."

You: "No! I am not ignoring vocabulary. I agree there are thousands of Romance loanwords."

I: "And you disagree that English is Romance?"

You: "Correct! It is Germanic."

I: "Then it is by Germanic dominance that English is Germanic."

You: "No! It is not by dominance. English is ultimately Germanic."

I: "What about Romance loanwords in vocabulary?"

You: "They are discounted in language classification."

I: "Why?"

You: "Because language classification is determined by the grammatical structure not the overall vocabulary."


I, in turn, will ask, "Why not the vocabulary?"

You: "Because vocabulary is not a good determination of language origin because it is too mobile and transient for classification."

I: "Well, what is a good determination of language origin?"

You: "Grammar."

I: "But you cannot ignore the minority which is the vocabulary."

You: "No one is ignoring the minority."

I: "You are by ignoring vocabulary."

You: "No! I am not ignoring vocabulary. I agree there are thousands of Romance loanwords."

I: "And you disagree that English is Romance?"

You: "Correct! It is Germanic."

I: "Then it is by Germanic dominance that English is Germanic."

You: "No! It is not by dominance. English is ultimately Germanic."

I: "What about Romance loanwords in vocabulary?"

You: "They are discounted in language classification."

I: "Why?"

You: "Because language classification is determined by the grammatical structure not the overall vocabulary."


I, in turn, will ask, "Why not the vocabulary?"

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

Again, I don't disagree with English being Germanic. But do not say it is Romance because of vocab, etymology, and adstratum. Why ignore the minority?

Lol you just did it again(and again while I was typing this).. People keep answering you, and you acknowledge the answer, then slightly rephrase the same question.. I don't know what your on man, but I need to get some of that! Like I feel like if no one had posted in this thread but you, there would still be like 10 of your posts in a row saying the same sh!t.