Is Crusader Kings for the less than hardcore player?

[unmerged(138456)]

That is the question I have 2 days of trying to play CK/DV (plunked down$25), post YouTube tutorial and CSK's Bohemia AAR. This post is my attempt to deal with the frustration I've experienced so far.

As much as I want to believe in the game, it still seems rather overwhelming in detail and enigmatic in its dynamics to me.

I am hoping folks here might use this post to help me get a sense of both so I may enjoy or it give up due to either my lack of intelligence (I have a PhD in the humanities btw) or lack of patience to overcome what I take to be the steepest learning curve I've encountered (confession: I am not much of a computer gamer nor have I played many strategy board games). Is this game simply too harcore for me or is there a way for me to learn/enjoy it or both?

On a postive note, I understand the interface fairly well. However, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing (or watching) 80% of the time. The consequences of many of the events that occur (child rearing, friendship, land conditions, marriage proposal), the nature of combat (are my forces together, how do I attack? who am I attacking exactly, what the heck happens on the map after that), allude me totally. Moreover, taking the trial and error, deduction and induction route seems too much like an excercise in frustration to me at this point.

And despite CSK's Bohemia tutorial AAR, which isn't brass tacks enough in "how to's" for me to simply replicate, I ended up losing my all my land? or did I? to Poland and be so far in gold debt and dont' know why I want to cry.

Anyway, I throw this out here for any kind or frank soul who wants to reply. At the moment unless I can really find a some good tutorship/material, I'm afraid this new great game will sit dormant on my computer.

 

[TempestDK]

Welcome to CK/DV and a wonderful game

First of all .... Don't give up. You will learn (and there are always people around here to help you out). Hopefully once you have conquered the learming curve, you'll enjoy it.

As to exactly what you should do ... there are many things you CAN do .. since this is open-ended game, yu can do more or less what you want.

Select a good starting country to learn. I would recommend either a large independent duchy (like Apulia) or maybe Kingdoms of Denmark or Sweden. They are not too big, and not too small. Denmark and Sweden have lots of weak pagans nearby in the Baltics, that you can practice your combat skills on.

The game is more of a Role-playing game than an actual war or strategy game. Most of the fun comes from actually managing your family and court.

Now if you get confused easily on the map, I will suggest that you switch to the realms map, where each realm is color coded ... the terrains map (the default one) sucks.

War is expensive .... very expensive, so either save up the money to go to war, or accept the debt. It is not really bad to go into debt. Rulers in those days did it all the time.

Take it slow ... pick on small pagans or muslims to expand your realm. Later on you can start to try taking on larger christian nations, and working with vassals, claims etc.

When I start a game, I usually try to build a few improvements to make some money. Even though Courts of Justice make you less money they are essential to keep thieves and smugglers out of your provinces.

For research, go for Siege equipment (army tech), power and the one that gives mines (trade tech).

Other than that I have no specific things you SHOULD do ... but don't get discouraged when things don't work out ... try over with a different strategy and see how that works out.

You can always come back with specific questions you might have to the game mechanics ... why something happens when you do this or that.

 

[unmerged(104088)]

When I first started out, I almost smashed the disc in frustration. I'd been recommended it and it seemed like such an inscrutable, shit game.

Here I am, two years later and it's the most amazing game I've ever played. Mastery takes time, but once you have it; it's incredibly rewarding. Read articles around here, ask questions and experiment and within no time, you'll be bashing heathens and smiting Muslims.

 

[Ebenweb]

That is the question I have 2 days of trying to play CK/DV (plunked down$25), post YouTube tutorial and CSK's Bohemia AAR. This post is my attempt to deal with the frustration I've experienced so far.

As much as I want to believe in the game, it still seems rather overwhelming in detail and enigmatic in its dynamics to me.

I am hoping folks here might use this post to help me get a sense of both so I may enjoy or it give up due to either my lack of intelligence (I have a PhD in the humanities btw) or lack of patience to overcome what I take to be the steepest learning curve I've encountered (confession: I am not much of a computer gamer nor have I played many strategy board games). Is this game simply too harcore for me or is there a way for me to learn/enjoy it or both?

On a postive note, I understand the interface fairly well. However, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing (or watching) 80% of the time. The consequences of many of the events that occur (child rearing, friendship, land conditions, marriage proposal), the nature of combat (are my forces together, how do I attack? who am I attacking exactly, what the heck happens on the map after that), allude me totally. Moreover, taking the trial and error, deduction and induction route seems too much like an excercise in frustration to me at this point.

And despite CSK's Bohemia tutorial AAR, which isn't brass tacks enough in "how to's" for me to simply replicate, I ended up losing my all my land? or did I? to Poland and be so far in gold debt and dont' know why I want to cry.

Anyway, I throw this out here for any kind or frank soul who wants to reply. At the moment unless I can really find a some good tutorship/material, I'm afraid this new great game will sit dormant on my computer.

Give yourself some credit: you've bitten off a lot for someone with limited gaming and strategy experience. I doubt the mechanics are apparent to anyone when they start out and the documentation and interface are certainly no roadmap.

I've only started playing Paradox games recently, although I have a fairly extensive background of strategy games (board and computer). I found the learning curve for CK and EUIII extremely steep and sometimes frustrating.

However, none of the other games I've played over the last twenty years or so have given me the same sense of satisfaction and accomplisment.

What's essential to the experience (I believe) is this forum. You will find the people here very quick to respond and extremely helpful. There is an answer to every question you might pose here and, if you're like me, you will find yourself thinking out new questions and strategies even when you're not in front of the game.

Don't give up. Pose a lot of individual questions on the forum. Enjoy the steady learning experience.

Once you love this game, I'll recommend an easier one

 

[Slinky]

I had already played EU3 a bit before I bought CK so I might have had a slight advantage over you. What I tried however was a few short practise runs. Just sessions of an hour in which I tried different things. Like: what happens when I attack my neighbour / answer: my liege doesn't like his vassals to fight and DOW's me. Liege is King of Germany --> game over. After only a few of these short trial and error games (emphasis on error, deliberately trying to make mistakes is fun and you will learn a lot), I went for my first campaign game so to speak. I began as an independant count in Ireland and just tried to become king. I managed it without much trouble, but I didn't like some of the decisions I made and I especially didn't like the way the Muslims invaded England and my freshly conquered Wales . So a lot wiser I tried again.

I found this game to be a lot of fun and because you rule a dynasty and not a country a lot of things are different from 'normal' strategy games. This will mean some getting used to, but it is worth it. I did found out that if you are a small count, you need patience in the beginning of the game, because your options are limited.

 

[Wezqu]

Don't really get why this game is to some hard to play. I learned this faster than EUIII. Also this is the best game that paradox has ever made.

 

[unmerged(133776)]

Don't really get why this game is to some hard to play. I learned this faster than EUIII. Also this is the best game that paradox has ever made.

I've never played EU, but from my reading, some of the controls/mechanics are similar, so the learning curve would be lessened. I agree with the OP, this was my first Paradox game, and it took me a couple weeks to get a handle on it, but this Forum and all of the wonderful posters here have helped me immensely. And now look at me, even "I" am posting answers.

 

[23EightSix]

You need to start CK/DV (be sure to get DV) in limited doses.

I picked up CK from an EBgames on a whim (it was 9.99 and I had only been exposed to EUIII) and after installing it and taking a look at the interface and game map I HATED it. I exited the game and let it sit for several months.

It wasnt until my video card burnt out and I was forced to use an old PCI card that I finally understood what this game was all about. And about two attempts later I was hooked. One of my greatest thrills in recent gaming was guiding my first dynasty leader(s) from lowly Count to King of a nation.

Ever since then Ive been killing time with other (and lesser!) Paradox and Total War games eagerly awaiting the justice that needs to be done with this game.

I really think Paradox has a gem in this game series in terms of unique gameplay content, but we can only hope they realize it!

But as far as your question is concerned - you just need to enroll in the school of hard knocks. Pick a County or a small Duchy near the european frontier, one in which has some Pagan or other such non believers nearby. With such little materials a county can offer you will soon be accustomed to how the mechanics work. That it man, just jump in.

 

[unmerged(138456)]

Appreciatively....

It is good to know 2 things: (1) That there has been people where I've been and (2) that there is a community of supportive and dedicate gamers who can still vouch for the excellence of this game.

Now to a few more quick dynamic/gameplay questions:
1. Combat: When? I see the NPC provinces mobilizing and marching off while I sit educating young children. How long (i.e. days) before you try to claim a title/declare war, which is inevitable and the only way to grow your dynasty, no? How would one know?

2. Combat: How? There is no searchable engine of the forum IFAICT. So is there a combat tutorial somewhere? I'm still confused about mobilizing, moving, declaring, and engaging. I see the banners for each regiment but not sure how to combine and/or how to send which first, etc. Really, figuring out the combat aspect seems beyond me. I'm willing to make errors of judgement just don't want to make errors of clicking. Do tell.

3. Assasination: Huh? Is there a good explanation of how this works and somewhere?

I don't want folks to reinvent the wheel here so if any old post or links exist, great!

Yours in the game....

 

[ppga]

Well I've been a Paradoxian since the first EU, but for some reason I didn't pick up CK/DV until a couple of weeks ago. It is really impressive, Paradox is an exceptionally good company at keeping what's good about a game (a lot of the EU interface elements are in CK, for example), and then adding in new stuff that is pretty much all good.

Now, as for your questions:

1) I think one of the first things to do is to look at your gameplay settings. From my experience with EU and CK, and from what I've read on the CK boards, you should set the AI's aggressiveness to something less than normal, like weakling. Otherwise, as you've observed, you see lot's of AI rulers marching off to war too much, and in the mid to long run they mostly wind up weakening themselves.

Which also means you've probably been doing things the right way sitting around and educating children. This is important, they're your future rulers, vassals and advisors. Finding them good mothers is also important, because parents with good traits (like midas-touched) will influence their kids, and it's also a great way to recruit advisers. Your son just turned 16 and you have a crappy steward? Use the ledger to find him a nice young wife with great stewardship. Even if you grant him land later on, his wife will still stay at your court as your advisor, and they can still have kids.

Build up your provinces and your dynasty, choose your targets and take them out, the quicker the better given how expensive armies are to maintain.

2) Combat is rather straightforward, when two opposing armies meet, they fight, you have no control over it. If you have more than one army in a province (and they must not be on the move), there should be a box to combine armies in the bottom right of the army summary, or to split up combined armies.

3) Other than the fact that it depends on intrigue, don't know so much about this one.

This thread, common newbie questions answered, is one I found useful, if you haven't seen it yet take a look:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177505

 

[unmerged(31881)]

Combat cliches, as applied to CK....

Size matters!

All other things being equal, the bigger army wins. It's not a perfect guarantee but a reliable rule of thumb.

It's not the size of the dog in fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Partially untrue. But between two equal sized armies, you'll want the one that's better led. So the Martial skill of the leader can make a difference. Careful not to rely on it too much... as it might not overcome a size differential. Plus leadership isn't distributed according to skill (meritocracy, that's gotta be some sort of heresy!). Rather it's assigned by title, position, seniority and so on. Once you get the hang of it you can rearrange leadership a little bit, within limits.

Money, power, respect (language warning)

So how to ensure a big army? Stewardship. For your ruler and your steward. That's first and foremost. The higher your marshal's Martial skill... they faster they recruit to the gold-related limit. i.e. you stewardship, which modifies the province income. So watch out for thieve's guilds and smugglers! Bad for the economy, bad for your army.

Run!

When you're losing, there better be a reason to stick with the fight you're in. Otherwise, better to run away. Preserves lives and morale. (By the way, watch out for reloading the game: it resets morale to zero, iirc.)

Siege Stealing: a.k.a. when your ruler does it, it's annoying. When you do it is fun. And it was hard to think of a link for this.

See title. Also watch out for your liege making peace for a pittance when you start your first war against [name of religious enemy here]. Either that, or showing up and taking that rich city you've just spent a year besieging. But double-edged swords cut both ways. Keep an eye for sieges you can steal. (For example from untitled courtiers, swoop in at the last moment with your count to take the castle and the credit.)

 

[TempestDK]

It is good to know 2 things: (1) That there has been people where I've been and (2) that there is a community of supportive and dedicate gamers who can still vouch for the excellence of this game.

Now to a few more quick dynamic/gameplay questions:
1. Combat: When? I see the NPC provinces mobilizing and marching off while I sit educating young children. How long (i.e. days) before you try to claim a title/declare war, which is inevitable and the only way to grow your dynasty, no? How would one know?

2. Combat: How? There is no searchable engine of the forum IFAICT. So is there a combat tutorial somewhere? I'm still confused about mobilizing, moving, declaring, and engaging. I see the banners for each regiment but not sure how to combine and/or how to send which first, etc. Really, figuring out the combat aspect seems beyond me. I'm willing to make errors of judgement just don't want to make errors of clicking. Do tell.

3. Assasination: Huh? Is there a good explanation of how this works and somewhere?

I don't want folks to reinvent the wheel here so if any old post or links exist, great!

Yours in the game....

1. When you start a new game, lots of rulers already have claims on each other, and often will start to enforce them early on. If you pick a realm where your ruler have claims on foreign territory, you can go for it as soon as you wish.

Remember that claims are not needed with pagans and muslims, so you can just declare war and once the siege is completed, you get a claim on the province, that you can press in the peace negotiations.

So if near pagans or muslims, you can easily expand that way ... especially if you are a Kingdom or independent Duchy/County.

2. As far as combining armies, this is done when multiple armies are in the same province (and not moving). Then you can drag a box around them with the mouse and a screen will open with all the regiments. There should be a merge button in the lower corner.

3. The combined intrigue score is the key ... that means having a very good (and loyal) spymaster is essential for assasination attempts. This is countered by the target's intrigue score + the intrigue score of the spymaster of that realm. So trying to assasinate a ruler with 15 INT who has a 15 INT spymaster is probably not going to be successful. Unless you have stats through the roof.

Also be very careful about murdering family members (including wives), as if you are discovered, you'll get the Kinslayer trait, which is very nasty, and will most likely make you hated by both vassals and courtiers.

4. Actually most buttons, options and values have a tool tip for it, if you hover over it. It should give you an idea of what a button does, or why a value is as it is.

F.x. the power buttons in the province window, the tool tip will tell you what effects there are to having more power to one class and whom that power will be taken from.

You can also open the character screen of a courtier and hover the mouse over his loyalty rating, and the tool tip will tell you what affects his loyalty.

5. For quick overviews, the ledger is your friend. You will find it between the zoom buttons in the mini map. Especially page 5 (potential brides) is wonderful addition to DV ... but it can also give an overview of your dynasty, courtiers, armies, provinces, claims, succession lines, vassals etc.

6. Wars and money .... early on when you do not have alot of money, you need to make swift grabs for provinces. That means, don't go into all out war witha big neighbour. Instead make a small swift war on a one or two province pagan or neighbour you have a claim on. If your army is much larger than theirs, and the distance is short to the target, you can lower your army maintenance. However this will increase attrition, so it should only be used for small fast wars.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

6. Wars and money .... early on when you do not have alot of money, you need to make swift grabs for provinces. That means, don't go into all out war witha big neighbour. Instead make a small swift war on a one or two province pagan or neighbour you have a claim on. If your army is much larger than theirs, and the distance is short to the target, you can lower your army maintenance. However this will increase attrition, so it should only be used for small fast wars.

For the first attempt at war, I would actually not recommend bothering with the details too much. Rather, single out a small pagan or muslim minor, check how many troops he can mobilize, then see if you can mobilize as much or more than he can, if yes, mobilize all your troops, march them over to his place, whack him hard, siege his province, take it. Mission accomplished. Demob your troops, enjoy your new piece of real estate and the increased cashflow from your newly acquired taxpaying subjects, wait for debt to go away, find a new target, repeat procedure.

Everything beyond that is unneccessary for a start into the game. Things like debt and maintenance management, claims, etc can be learned after the basics. As in, "So I went and conquered a province, and now I got a lot of debt and wounded/sick courtiers. How can I do this better next time?"

Regards,
Lev

 

[Slinky]

A few things to add to the above posts:

Now to a few more quick dynamic/gameplay questions:
1. Combat: When? I see the NPC provinces mobilizing and marching off while I sit educating young children. How long (i.e. days) before you try to claim a title/declare war, which is inevitable and the only way to grow your dynasty, no? How would one know?

It depends. If you start large, there is no reason to wait very long with declaring war or claiming titles. As soon as you can miss the prestige, select a target and go for it. If you start small however, which is what I tend to do and is more fun, you have to play opportunistic. When I start as an Irish, one demesne, count, I try to conquer one of my one province neighbours at the earliest possible opportunity. This is possible because the Irish counts start without a liege. My advice would be to look for rebelling vassals or pagans, both are usually easy pickings. You can try and attack a vassal from another liege, but make sure that your liege can handle his liege. Don't attack someone who has the same liege as you! Your liege will always pick the side that's being attacked. As for when to claim titles, be selective in the early part of the game. Pick the targets you think you might attack in the near future. However if you find someone who is excommunicated and not too far away for you to be uninteresting, claim his titles right away, because they will only cost a fraction of the prestige normally involved. Also don't be afraid to not act on a claim. The situation may have changed since you got it and it might be better to lose the claim or wait than to lose a war.

You are wrong about war being the only way to expand. You can expand solely through inheritances and only fighting defensive wars. That will however require a lot of patience and I think it boring to only expand through diplomatic means (and the occasional assasination )

2. Combat: How? There is no searchable engine of the forum IFAICT. So is there a combat tutorial somewhere? I'm still confused about mobilizing, moving, declaring, and engaging. I see the banners for each regiment but not sure how to combine and/or how to send which first, etc. Really, figuring out the combat aspect seems beyond me. I'm willing to make errors of judgement just don't want to make errors of clicking. Do tell.

You can search the forum by entering in google: "SITE=forum.paradoxplaza.com searchterm".
A regiments size depends on the income of the province, the composure of the regiment depends on your laws and the power of the different factions in your province (clergy, burgers, paesants and nobles). At least that's how I thought it works. So make sure you have a good stewart. I will try to get a more helpfull answer later.

 

[FNK_Drake]

I remeber playing my first paradox game, Eu2, when I was about 14 or so..

At first, when I looked at the map all I saw was a blur of colours and flags. Nothing really made much sense to me, but as time went on I learned.

Dont give up, CK is an incredible game. you will learn in time, it takes patience.

a few tips:

first of all, badboy. Learn what it is, and how you get it. its probably the most important factor to creating a stable kingdom. (theres a good FAQ in the FAQ section)

Where to conquer: Pagans and Muslims are the best targets. Save up some gold, and goto war. You must take into account transport costs, and Upkeep for the duration of the war. Debt is bad, avoid it if possible, but its not the end of the world.

When you hover the mouse over provinces itll tell you the Duchy and Kingdom it belongs to. The best strategy is to conquer atleast 66% of the provinces in the Duchy to be able to create the title. Then keep the highest income provinces as your personal Demense and release the rest to a loyal vassal and make him a Duke.

Other than that, look for opportunity to marry your Dynasty members to the oldest child if female of Duchys. Their son will inherit, and theres a chance you may one day control those lands.(Check the laws page, itll tell you what inheritance laws apply where.) Make sure to keep track of the age of the oldest female children of the dukes, they come of age at 16 and marry quite fast. This strategy is quite complex, so maybe dont try too hard at first.

Watch your vassals loyalty. One your character screen the one on the far right is the most disloyal. Sometimes you cant avoid them breaking free, but it can be an oportunity to take their land and install a more loyal vassal. Friends of your king are best, they get a large loyalty bonus.

You will get the hang of it, its daunting at first, but Paradox games for all their complexity are quite easy to learn I find.

Goodluck

 

[fbaker4]

For your first few games, play 'stripped down' only the simplest features...leave Assassination to the wayside.

 

[Kuipy]

You may also want to invest in DV, which makes the game easier (and probably easier to learn)

 

[unmerged(78999)]

I want to add one piece of advice that I learned from EUIII and find even more useful in CK: Go into message settings, and the under the military section. Find the one about the message after a successful siege and set it to popup and pause. That gives you a chance to react to siege victories immediately after they finish, giving you the first move, before your allies.

 

[TempestDK]

You may also want to invest in DV, which makes the game easier (and probably easier to learn)

He already got DV, according to his original post

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

If you start, you'll expirience the full effect of having a bad king. a bad king is able to get a whole kingdom destroyed, desintegrated. Playing as Apulia I experienced it twice, and then I spent 30-40 years remaking my kingdom. I must admit it: that was one of the best parts of the game. The challenge that provides this game is great, and even if you master it you'll find that it's not easy at all to make something so simple in other games (like the Total War series) as conquering and keeping control of all Spain.

Great empires are hard to maintain, and a bad king can make all your efforts useless. When you fight for keeping some pieces of your father's once great empire, I experiene all the political troubles that a Medieval king could have (not inflation and monetary problems, of course).

Have fun with Crusader Kings, health and honour!