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Elisha

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Not just tech 18 and 23. According to my charts there are many other tech levels that should heavily favor the cav heavy army. And if you're using artillery already it's not that big of an increase in maintenance. I think cavalry could be the meta.

In MP, you should have many times more frontline units than artillery- So it will definitely be a big maintenance increase.
Still, for techs like 17-19 where cav deals 50% more damage than inf they can be worth the price increase. Another factor is how hard is it to keep your front line at a bit under cav ratioafter some battles & assaults without pausing. For example, a situation where half your infantry die in assaults, and then you can't use half your cav until the inf reinforce.
 
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EarlKonrad

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It is dangerous to go to war like that. If you have advantage you should try to annihilate enemy troop. I lost a close war trying to siege a hill city with enemy army intact!

At the game start, cavalry has many advantage that some may not recognize in full:
- the shock damage (modifier) double that of infantry
- much more pip. Even at mil tech 10, it is 8 pip vs 5 pip of Western infantry. Or 9 vs 6 Chinese group.
- These above advantage get multipled by shock generals.
- Save manpower on attrition and combat
- Concentrate attack on the point of contact: the cavalry can defeat an facing infantry quick, then turn to other units.


If one is poor and weak in a dangerous war, one can use the all infantry strategy by mobilize the whole manpower before go to battle. But if one has enough gold, short in manpower or lower in tech or morale, or facing a shock 5 enemy general with a lot of cavalry, then it is fine to get some cavalry

If I recall correctly, most battles in the early game are decided by morale and not casualties, meaning that it is better to have more men in general rather than more cavalry. Yes, high shock generals will annihilate any army, but that is true even if they are attached to armies that only have infantry.

Again, the problems with cavalry in the early game is that they are bloody expensive and only a few countries have the economy to sustain fielding 2-4 horses when they can, for the same price, sustain around 5-10 more squads of infantry.

The nation's that get the most advantage from having a lot of cavalry are hordes and the pay the price for having the strongest early game armies by having the absolute worst economy out of any other nations (save some tribes and natives). However, in their case this is justifiable as they tend to have banks nearby where they can pillage and sack for ducats and being able to raze provinces gives them a cash injection to keep their armies afoot so they can conquer and raze more.

Everyone else? Unless you are one of the top 15 in terms of eco it isn't feasible to field much cavalry and when you do have the economy to support cavalry you have to start building artillery -- and artillery is ludicrously expensive.
 

k4sp3r00

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If I recall correctly, most battles in the early game are decided by morale and not casualties, meaning that it is better to have more men in general rather than more cavalry. Yes, high shock generals will annihilate any army, but that is true even if they are attached to armies that only have infantry.
Morale settling battles is true for all parts of the game and it is even more important in the early game but since there are basically no stackwipes in the early game casualties are a big deal unless you're an opm in dire straits. Either way cav is value since infantry can't flank for shit. Whether you throw 30k or 20k infantry into a 10k stack makes no difference since only 12 infantry can actually attack. However if you had cav you could have had 12k infantry and 2k cavalry or 10k infantry and 4k cavalry attacking... or 8k infantry and 6k cavalry but even I wouldn't do that unless I was a horde or smth

Everyone else? Unless you are one of the top 15 in terms of eco it isn't feasible to field much cavalry and when you do have the economy to support cavalry you have to start building artillery -- and artillery is ludicrously expensive.
Not necessarily true since it's pretty easy to run either debt or only 1k artillery per stack early on(or to have bullshit trade money lol). Also as per the analysis of OP artillery only dwarfs cav some time after tech 18 in terms of raw combat power and you really should be top 15 in terms of eco long before that. A few nations also have +looting speed in their ideas and that helps with paying for cav quite a bit since loot can be a lot of money and cav is the main way to get it in a reasonable timeframe.
 

makaramus

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for western nation:Even if you are fielding 40 k stacks just have 2 cavalary
for muslims:%20 is very nice number. if you dont got any cavalary bonuses then 1 cavalary every 9 infintry is better
for poland:%40 or %35 depending on your army quality and casulties
for eastern nations:Early game go ham cavalary but as cossacks become less relevant abandon them and focus on infintry
toward late game keep reducing amount of cavalary you got unless your ideas focus on them even if muslim
You want cavalary so you can kill more aganist open flanks. you dont want to use cavalary at wars with full stacks unless yours are very good


in short:Allways have 2 at your armies. If you are a nation who loves cavalary maybe get someting like 5-8 every stack.
for ottomans as example early game cavalary supported by janisarries and cannons is gold! you are surrounded by minors so you will just waste less man power and money at wars while making wars end faster thus allways benefiting
but as prussia you want NO CAVALARY as your infintry is your brute might even if it means you are sacrificing flanking
 
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EarlKonrad

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for western nation:Even if you are fielding 40 k stacks just have 2 cavalary
for muslims:%20 is very nice number. if you dont got any cavalary bonuses then 1 cavalary every 9 infintry is better
for poland:%40 or %35 depending on your army quality and casulties
for eastern nations:Early game go ham cavalary but as cossacks become less relevant abandon them and focus on infintry
toward late game keep reducing amount of cavalary you got unless your ideas focus on them even if muslim
You want cavalary so you can kill more aganist open flanks. you dont want to use cavalary at wars with full stacks unless yours are very good


in short:Allways have 2 at your armies. If you are a nation who loves cavalary maybe get someting like 5-8 every stack.
for ottomans as example early game cavalary supported by janisarries and cannons is gold! you are surrounded by minors so you will just waste less man power and money at wars while making wars end faster thus allways benefiting
but as prussia you want NO CAVALARY as your infintry is your brute might even if it means you are sacrificing flanking.

How can you afford to field Cossacks? Since 1.30 changed Special Unit Limits I've been having trouble to field more than a handful of Cossacks at any given moment.
 

Kryndude

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It's only natural that people have different opinions on the viability of cavalry. It really depends on the situation. Even something as simple as 10% CCA or inf/cav ratio can sometimes be enough to tip the balance, it's just too difficult to give a definitive judgement due to the complexity of the game.

If I recall correctly, most battles in the early game are decided by morale and not casualties, meaning that it is better to have more men in general rather than more cavalry.
All battles are decided by morale. A unit never dies off before it breaks. Discipline and combat ability only indirectly affect the outcome of morale battle via each soldier killed inflicting small amount of morale damage to the remaining troops. This effect, however, never exceeds the impact of morale modifier itself. The common myth of 'early game morale, late game discipline' is, therefore, only partially true. While it is true that morale is most impactful in the early game, it's not because the functionality of combat modifiers change, but rather because of the nature of warfare shifting as countries get bigger and field more troops. In the early game, a single stackwipe is often enough to ensure victory, whereas, in the late game, you have to fend off the enemy multiple times before you can siege down enough forts to gain meaningful amount of warscore. Therefore, stats that improve manpower trade efficiency (discipline, combat ability, etc) are likely to be more important in a late game warfare environment.

However if you had cav you could have had 12k infantry and 2k cavalry or 10k infantry and 4k cavalry attacking...
Actually, 12 infantry and 2 cavalry is the same as 10 inf and 2 cav if you're fighting a 10k army. The game doesn't deploy them properly. It places the two cavs on the nearest flanks and the remaining 2 infantries just move around doing nothing.

Also as per the analysis of OP artillery only dwarfs cav some time after tech 18 in terms of raw combat power
It really depends on which tech group you're in and what other military modifiers you have, but generally speaking cavs aren't dwarfed by cannons in tech 18. Combat-wise, artillery really starts to shine once you acquire the 20% backrow damage age ability, which is around tech 24. They get strong enough to use for combat purposes at tech 16 tho, which is why I start using artillery included calculations from then, but that's really because you can make use of more combat space with cannons. Mathematically, it's still pretty weak until tech 22.



edit:
Discipline affects both morale and kill casualties, which is why 5% is it's base unit. Morale and combat ability only affect one side, hence the 10% as their base unit. The game is balanced in a way that, given everything else is equal, morale wins battles and combat abilities inflict more losses. Discipline is in the middle.
 
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Kryndude

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In MP, you should have many times more frontline units than artillery- So it will definitely be a big maintenance increase.
Still, for techs like 17-19 where cav deals 50% more damage than inf they can be worth the price increase. Another factor is how hard is it to keep your front line at a bit under cav ratioafter some battles & assaults without pausing. For example, a situation where half your infantry die in assaults, and then you can't use half your cav until the inf reinforce.
Makes sense. Cavalry is quite costly, can't deny that. But I'd really like to encourage the MP community to experiment more with cavs on different tech levels. If you think western cav at tech 18 and 19 is worth it, then statistically tech 11, 23, and 24 should also be worth it too. Maybe not tech 11 since money wouldn't be as plenty in the early game, but then it's also the top 2 strongest cav-tech for western group, so that's that.
 
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BIGBOSS333

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I use cav a decent amount, I'm no pro with it in MP but Poland full cav, Hungary full cav, or Yuan with eastern tech full cav is very satisfying and definitely feels worth it. Esp at tech 8, Poland or hungary with cossack cav and cossack cav combat can just stomp. Even earlier though releasing a horde vassal and building horde cav combined with cossack cav combat is enough for muscovy for example to stomp poland(release qasimov day 1 and int poland/lithuania). Anatolian and Muslim cav is good too early so ottomans with full cav is pretty fun esp if you're playing a modded game with 100% cav to inf ratio. Horde cav with the 25% shock damage with horde cav pips and cav combat is the most satisfying but your eco is so bad it's really hard to maintain the cav units in mp since there's only so much ai you can loot/raze/take money from and so it's really stressful playing hordes for any significant amount of time and you get outscaled fast, sadly limiting their effectiveness. In general I rarely build more than a few cav for the cav flanking if I'm playing western, there simply aren't a lot of nations with cav bonuses and infantry just seems to have more bang for the buck with western.
 

makaramus

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How can you afford to field Cossacks? Since 1.30 changed Special Unit Limits I've been having trouble to field more than a handful of Cossacks at any given moment.
thats why I said at early game
at very early game they still have some land, allowing them to be useful to a degree. also you can give them more land for early estate benefits and cavalary boost but as game progress no doubt you dont want them to keep land anymore
maybe there can be a build where you give %70 land to cossacks as polish tengri horde but other than that I too agree cosscaks not worth to give land to cossacks just for cavalary so its worth WHILE THEY STILL have it
 

Cavalry

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If I recall correctly, most battles in the early game are decided by morale and not casualties, meaning that it is better to have more men in general rather than more cavalry. Yes, high shock generals will annihilate any army, but that is true even if they are attached to armies that only have infantry.

Again, the problems with cavalry in the early game is that they are bloody expensive and only a few countries have the economy to sustain fielding 2-4 horses when they can, for the same price, sustain around 5-10 more squads of infantry.

in tech groups like Chinese (not Western), early game cavalry and high max morale combo is very deadly because cavalry has more morale pip than infantry, and the kills added to morale damage, too. And I think all the extra troops get morale hit, so it does not help much to have more infantry than enemy. Cavalry looks like worth more than 2.5x cost of infantry in battle.

Infantry numbers help in siege and negotiation, though. And numbers and kill needed to stackwipe too. I copy the wiki here:
------
Morale[edit]
Morale is an important factor in fighting battles. Each day of combat a unit will take a Morale hit of 0.03 regardless of damage taken from an enemy regiment. If it is taking casualties from an enemy, additional morale damage will be inflicted. Once an army's overall Morale value has been reduced to zero the army will attempt to retreat. Retreat cannot happen until both two fire and two shock phases have completed, and army that has its morale reduced to 0 AND is outnumbered 2:1 before that point will be destroyed. This destruction is known as a stackwipe. Contrary to popular belief, reducing the enemy army to 0 morale before they can retreat is NOT sufficient to stackwipe.
 
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KRBLACK

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IIRC, the cavalry doesn't deploy correctly. Arumba made a very informative video about it, but I am not sure if the bug still persists today.

The main problem is that cavalry doesn't move closer to the center as enemy units are routed, which quickly makes them become idle. So they don't use their flanking range properly.

Aside from that, I find having 1 or 2 cavalry units can be quite beneficial when playing as a minor with low forcelimit.
Early wars in the HRE usually have a lot of armies below 10K.
I usually take fight where I outnumber my enemy, and in this case I can field 2 more units that will actually contribute to the fight. On an army of 6K soldiers that is rather significant.
 

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IIRC, the cavalry doesn't deploy correctly. Arumba made a very informative video about it, but I am not sure if the bug still persists today.

The main problem is that cavalry doesn't move closer to the center as enemy units are routed, which quickly makes them become idle. So they don't use their flanking range properly.
Last time I checked (about a year ago) it seemed to be working fine. Can't tell for sure because it was just one observation.
 

Reman

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Cav deployment is still just as janky as it ever was. There are two problems. First, inf starts with a flanking range of 1 and cav starts with a flanking range of 2, so theoretically it should be possible to have infantry in the inner flanking spots, then have cavalry in the outer flanking spots to maximize damage. However, if you make armies with 2 regiments of cav, they'll hog the inner flanking slots for no reason:

deploy1.png


The second issue is that cav don't redeploy to the center when outer enemy regiments are defeated. In the screenshot below you can see Austria's leftmost cav is just... chilling, I guess? It can't reach any of the enemy units:

deploy2.png


Note, you can micro around the first problem by detaching your cav and sending it into battle 1 day after your infantry arrives. But this takes a ton of micro when you factor in general maneuver pips, so this becomes really tedious past the early game.
 
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BlazeKnight_

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Although flanking mechanics aren't optimal, flanking is seriously not why you use Cavalry. If you are able to flank the enemy they lost already. It is to have more damage; problem being they somewhat fail at this due to their lack of fire defense pips = dies to cannons, plus their absurd price making them quite unviable when going over force limit.
 
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Cancerofthehead

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Cav deployment is still just as janky as it ever was. There are two problems. First, inf starts with a flanking range of 1 and cav starts with a flanking range of 2, so theoretically it should be possible to have infantry in the inner flanking spots, then have cavalry in the outer flanking spots to maximize damage. However, if you make armies with 2 regiments of cav, they'll hog the inner flanking slots for no reason:

View attachment 661270

The second issue is that cav don't redeploy to the center when outer enemy regiments are defeated. In the screenshot below you can see Austria's leftmost cav is just... chilling, I guess? It can't reach any of the enemy units:

View attachment 661271

Note, you can micro around the first problem by detaching your cav and sending it into battle 1 day after your infantry arrives. But this takes a ton of micro when you factor in general maneuver pips, so this becomes really tedious past the early game.

If you have enough cavalry it should deploy to all available flanking positions. Not for the start of the battle because any infantry can do that (as you said), but because once the enemy outer unit that is being hit by three of your guys dies it can keep attacking.
 

Ruian

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In what situation is winning battles slightly better more important then sieging forts 5 times faster.
Let's say you're an OPM and you're going to war with 3 other OPMs. You have 7k force limit but build up to 13k going way over force limit. They have 18k units between them. In my mind you would want to rush one of the OPMs and try to wipe it before the other 2 guys join in. Then you leave 1 unit on the fort, not trying to siege it but block them from building new units while you try to wipe the other 2 guys 12k vs 12k. You want a stronger 12k than them unless you plan to save scum until you win the dice game.
 

love sweden

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Let's say you're an OPM and you're going to war with 3 other OPMs. You have 7k force limit but build up to 13k going way over force limit. They have 18k units between them. In my mind you would want to rush one of the OPMs and try to wipe it before the other 2 guys join in. Then you leave 1 unit on the fort, not trying to siege it but block them from building new units while you try to wipe the other 2 guys 12k vs 12k. You want a stronger 12k than them unless you plan to save scum until you win the dice game.
Are you using a example in 1444 when cannons arent even avaliable?
 
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k4sp3r00

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In what situation is winning battles slightly better more important then sieging forts 5 times faster.
When sieging forts end with the ai booting you off the siege and winning battles a bit better results in stackwipes that stop the ai from booting you off the sieges. So all the important early game wars before you become too big to care and after you do you can afford to have both for the sake of efficiency in the battles that do happen.
 

WolframS67

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Cav deployment is still just as janky as it ever was. There are two problems. First, inf starts with a flanking range of 1 and cav starts with a flanking range of 2, so theoretically it should be possible to have infantry in the inner flanking spots, then have cavalry in the outer flanking spots to maximize damage. However, if you make armies with 2 regiments of cav, they'll hog the inner flanking slots for no reason:

View attachment 661270

The second issue is that cav don't redeploy to the center when outer enemy regiments are defeated. In the screenshot below you can see Austria's leftmost cav is just... chilling, I guess? It can't reach any of the enemy units:

View attachment 661271

Note, you can micro around the first problem by detaching your cav and sending it into battle 1 day after your infantry arrives. But this takes a ton of micro when you factor in general maneuver pips, so this becomes really tedious past the early game.

The static Cav deployment can go the other way too. Staying inside, instead of moving outside.
eu4_634.png

Start of the battle 12 vs 4, French Cav outflanks.

eu4_635.png

Eng reinforces with 4 inf. 12 vs 8, Cav isn't outflanking.

eu4_638.png

8 days later, 2 complete phases of fire and shock have passed. No redeployment. Cav is bleeding all the days.
 
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