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Arctander

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I have been almost exclusively playing 10v10s for the last week or so, and I'm seeing that the 91st is becoming a VERY rare appearance. Personally, I just can't bring myself to take them... but I was curious if there are any folks here who consider themselves to be at least reasonably proficient using them in the 10v10 matches?

If so, perhaps you can speak up and/or maybe post a replay or two to let me (and others) learn a bit more about how to better use the 91st? Because I'm just not seeing them used effectively enough to warrant picking them over the 12th or 17th.

Note: Please do not turn this into a "bash the 91st" thread, there are a few of those already on the forums. I'm just hoping to find out what I might be missing from their value (and maybe help others see more value in it too.)

Thanks!
 

roirraw

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91st should fight in urban environments, or very close hedge rows. The initial push has to be held somewhat because of mobility issues. 10 point infantry with leaders, backed up by mgs and cheap AT will buy you time for B phase. Arty should be all off map, use it as a wave to break up your front and occupy the holes while the next barrage is falling ahead. B phase should be marder II's and a stuh 42 for cleaning up line pushes. C phase is rolling railway artillery x 4 with heavy bombers and AA networks so thick nobody can touch your units. Just buy time and push for 20 minutes in C phase.

Only commit FJ in pairs and to prevent full collapse of line so other 10 point troops can fill in. If you get pushed, control the breaks direction and slow the advance by delaying supporting units of the enemy. Keep them bottled up in a general area that can be bombed/railwayed. Always call all planes out at the same time, so they all come home at the same time. Helps with AA mechanics too.

The 91st is about taking a beating. You need to know that it will happen and to ignore your feelings of wanting to strike back. Most people rage when they're unable to counter something the moment they want to. Which, is why I think people avoid the 91st. On top of how planes and AA work, most people just complain and don't bother to make effective networks with overlapping fire, to include microing the targets.
 

Bidule026

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Hi, i have the same question also but with the other game mode (1v1, 2v2, ... ).

And i would be pleased if i can watch some replay of good player using the 91st too :)
 

DuroSVK

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The problem I see with 91st Luftlande is that this division is very "soft" skinned with not much armored stuff, which means most of its units can be wiped out by arty or air spam (which is especially the case for 10v10 games)
 

I WUB PUGS

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If done right, it can be the most rage-inducing deck.
 

CyberianK

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@OP
I tried them a few times in 4v4 and such looking to somehow make them work but wasn't able to contribute much I definately hugely underperformed even with very adapted tactics recommended in other Luftbro threads. I would be very careful of peoples telling you they are awesome if played right as long as they don't post multiples replays against half competent enemies.

I think Luft would actually be playable if there wasn't troops in 2nd Inf and 15th Scots who can eat through half a dozen Ersatz but are cheap themselves.
Like a 25 point Ranger MG squad with 2 stars. Yes its more expensive but still way more economical than Ersatz imho. Then their options in nearly all areas are subpar and even the compensation their air isn't that fantastic.
 

darkfireslide

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I can speak from some of my AI experience in 1v1 and 2v2 against mainly mediums, what works and doesn't work in my experience.

I echo the earlier sentiment that sometimes you just lose flanks as this faction. It happens. However, something that is very nice in Phase A is the Hs. 129, which can easily kill the Churchills or any other tanks in the phase. It is hard to counter this aircraft except with other aircraft. However, the Me 109 is a very good fighter for protecting your bombers. This is important because the Hs. 129 is your primary defense against armor, and it can even kill Jumbos frontally thanks to the way the penetration system works, so find ways to use this aircraft effectively. You can get more in Phase B and C. Force your opponent to invest in AA, and then shut down that AA with the Fw 190 bomber and your infantry. Or use bombers to shut down infantry pushes or blind fire on artillery. Use the Me 109s with veterancy to wrest control of the skies. If you can get air superiority, life becomes very, very difficult for your opponent. The Fw 190 fighter/bomber is a very powerful unit that is not to be underestimated.

As for the ground forces, well.. the 55 point H35 tanks are basically the Erzatstruppen of tanks, and can be surprisingly useful if used to ambush or push unsuspecting opponents. You can get a good amount of Fallschirms to hold cities and bocage, and with 3 vet thanks to a cheap commander that has AT--these guys will melt enemy trooos. The 91st also get the IG18, which can shut down infantry pushes in the right circumstances. Mortars are still mortars and they can be used to provide smoke cover to set up ambushes with your Fallschirms. The Pz. Abwehr Recon are also quite effective units and 2 star Spähtrupp are no slouches, either (cheap commanders again help).

Erzatstruppen melt under any sustained fire, but can be very useful for holding territory in Phase A with proper support from AT guns and a commander. I find them to be good forward suicide scouts since they are so cheap, but they are surprisingly durable in buildings and heavy cover. The phase A 75mm Pak can also be very useful in a good position, and the 75mm can shoot HE shells as well. Be careful for arty, of course. The 37mm AT gun is occasionally useful, but mostly just cheap--you'll use them not because you want to, but because you have to. Like many other things, try to keep a cheap commander on hand at all times.

Phase B is arguably the roughest for the 91st. They get access to very middling ground troops during phase B and must make a bid for air superiority during this phase. The Marder II can be effective if used correctly, as can Grenadiers and Pioniers, but your forces will wither without proper air support, especially from either Fw190's for air and ground support and Hs. 129's for AT. You can get more Pak 40's in this phase and you'll want to use those to good effect. The Panzer III is more a support unit than anything else and shouldn't be counted on.

The arty for this deck is middling. Rely more on air support and use artillery to deceive your enemy with smoke, or use it to blast AA so your planes can do the real work. In phase C this deck has a bit of a resurgence, especially if you can get air superiority. Ju 88's are virtually impossible to shoot down without fighters, and by now you can get even more Hs. 129's. The 380mm battery in this phase can be devastating, but also it's phase C, so it only matters in close games. You also get a decent StuG III in this phase, so that's neat.

This is by no means a comprehensive list, just some observations I've made based on my experiences with them thus far. Since we're so early still, I could be completely wrong, but these are some thoughts.

A final note: I think this team works better in team games since aircraft can be force multipliers outside of a single flank. If you're directly communicating with your teammates you can coordinate air strikes and even have your buddies cover your Hs. 129 with fighters of their own.
 

Arctander

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I can recommend you watching National Holiday(local festival) replays here http://sd-replays.net/replay-list .o_O

Thanks for the suggestion. I just watched two replays with him against ZhukoDim. He beat him pretty well using the 91st against the 3AD. But ZhukoDim absolutely crushed him with the 12th SS. I'm not sure how they set it up for German v German... but they did. ;)
20170502141126_1a.jpg
 

Arctander

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...even the compensation their air isn't that fantastic.

That is the one spot that surprises me most of all. I would think that their planes would be stronger. Yes, they get 4 slots for air vs 3 for the others, but in my experience (like yours) it just doesn't cover for the infantry shortcomings compared to the allied troops.
 

darkfireslide

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That is the one spot that surprises me most of all. I would think that their planes would be stronger. Yes, they get 4 slots for air vs 3 for the others, but in my experience (like yours) it just doesn't cover for the infantry shortcomings compared to the allied troops.

Only 4 slots? Doesn't the 91st get like 8 slots for planes?
 

Arctander

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I echo the earlier sentiment that sometimes you just lose flanks as this faction. It happens. However, something that is very nice in Phase A is the Hs. 129, which can easily kill the Churchills or any other tanks in the phase. <snip> I think this team works better in team games since aircraft can be force multipliers outside of a single flank. If you're directly communicating with your teammates you can coordinate air strikes and even have your buddies cover your Hs. 129 with fighters of their own.

Thanks for the post and thoughts. I do agree that not sweating the "losing flanks" as much with them... and that 129 is the A-10 warthog of WW2 for sure.
20170502131504_1.jpg

However, I find that players eat it up far too quickly. AI isn't always as smart about air that I've seen.
 
Last edited:

2infamous

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Thanks for the suggestion. I just watched two replays with him against ZhukoDim. He beat him pretty well using the 91st against the 3AD. But ZhukoDim absolutely crushed him with the 12th SS. I'm not sure how they set it up for German v German... but they did. ;)
View attachment 262448

In the lobby settings you can switch it from Allies vs Axis to Axis vs Axis as well as Allies vs. Allies.

Only 4 slots? Doesn't the 91st get like 8 slots for planes?

They do have 7 slots for Air currently.
 

ZhukoDim

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Thanks for the suggestion. I just watched two replays with him against ZhukoDim. He beat him pretty well using the 91st against the 3AD. But ZhukoDim absolutely crushed him with the 12th SS. I'm not sure how they set it up for German v German... but they did. ;)

Better watch my US armored vs his Scots. :p Altough some of those games was played pretty late for us. Both was sleepy.
 

ZhukoDim

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You used tri-polstens! And torpedos aka 2-3 star 17 pdrs everywhere. Everyone know here that vs jumbos you need to use side shots. It is easy!
 

Vyllis

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I see them from time to time in 3v3 / 4v4. I also play them. In 10v10, unless you do play Colombelles tank&arty spam fest, you can see the 91st be used on Sword. They can bring planes; Sword have more infantry areas to play this deck.
 

darkfireslide

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Despite my insights earlier, I still think the 91st are probably the weakest Axis faction at the moment, especially in 1v1. I think they are alright against the 2nd ID and 3rd Arm, but against the Scots? Not much of a chance. But that might be more to the Scots being too good (Phase A AVRE lel) than anything else.