Irreversible cataclysmic economy collapse

[Almond_Brown]

Ok can some one explain how an Booming economy, with Fleets under Cap, while fighting in enemy territory, (had 7 Claims in hand) thus my economy should continue on unabated (Fight was as a small part of a Federation fight) tanked my Economy to the point Unrest hit every where ( I have Militarist Civic) and became unrecoverable for so long (3000+ days) the beaten enemy came back and took back everything and then some as my Economy was trashed.... ??????

I was fighting on his turf and winning FFS... Why did my people collapse so easily. Totally ruined a great play through really. It was getting good. A previous war, which I stayed out of had zero effect on my economy. I fight over a small piece of enemy turf, win, and it all goes to hell for 40 years after that war ends...????

Who stole all my Economy while I was in enemy territory?????

 

[AlanC9]

Agreed. TBH it should just temporarily disable/downgrade that many buildings that need it (making those jobs unworkable and pops unemployed). If there's enough gas for 90 jobs and you have 100 jobs using gas it should be 10 unemployed and 90 working normally, not -25% production and 0 unemployed.

I agree. While a human player can do this himself -- if he's aware that the "disable" button exists; sounds like some of us aren't -- it's just pointless micro.

 

[AlanC9]

Ok can some one explain how an Booming economy, with Fleets under Cap, while fighting in enemy territory, (had 7 Claims in hand) thus my economy should continue on unabated (Fight was as a small part of a Federation fight) tanked my Economy to the point Unrest hit every where ( I have Militarist Civic) and became unrecoverable for so long (3000+ days) the beaten enemy came back and took back everything and then some as my Economy was trashed.... ??????

I was fighting on his turf and winning FFS... Why did my people collapse so easily. Totally ruined a great play through really. It was getting good. A previous war, which I stayed out of had zero effect on my economy. I fight over a small piece of enemy turf, win, and it all goes to hell for 40 years after that war ends...????

Who stole all my Economy while I was in enemy territory?????

We're going to need more data than that. Got a save handy?

Of course, moving your ships from dock will increase maintenance costs somewhat.

 

[stumason]

Probably by tanking consumer goods first.

Aye - the only time I've ever had this -25% modifier is because my consumer goods ran out. I quickly learned to keep a lid on things and haven't had it happen to me again since.

You can't just spam anything in Stellaris now, much like when people complain pop growth is too small/they can't produce enough at the start of the game etc and it turns out they colonised 5 new worlds in the 1st ten years, gimping their homeworld growth and the subsequent filling of resource jobs they required to expand further.

Things now actually require a modicum of planning and foresight, otherwise you will cock up. Which is a good thing, it is a strategy game after all!

 

[stumason]

Ok can some one explain how an Booming economy, with Fleets under Cap, while fighting in enemy territory, (had 7 Claims in hand) thus my economy should continue on unabated (Fight was as a small part of a Federation fight) tanked my Economy to the point Unrest hit every where ( I have Militarist Civic) and became unrecoverable for so long (3000+ days) the beaten enemy came back and took back everything and then some as my Economy was trashed.... ??????

I was fighting on his turf and winning FFS... Why did my people collapse so easily. Totally ruined a great play through really. It was getting good. A previous war, which I stayed out of had zero effect on my economy. I fight over a small piece of enemy turf, win, and it all goes to hell for 40 years after that war ends...????

Who stole all my Economy while I was in enemy territory?????

I am willing to bet, if your stability tanked and unrest skyrocketed, that your consumer goods ran out, which in turn pisses people off, which gimps other production/jobs, which in turn will gimp your entire economy. Something must have been running a deficit and was left unchecked - things can run in the red for as long as you have supplies of that resource - the moment your stockpile hits zero, that's when you hit the rocks.

What baffles me though, if your economy was booming, why you simply didn't buy from the market to top up? Dump excess minerals, make a few grand and replace whatever it was that you were short of. I quite often run a deficit on consumer goods but merely keep topping up on the market to stop them running out, but if you forget that one month and run out, jeebus, the whole thing hits the fan!

 

[evilcat]

Sometimes mid economy crisis is caused by trying too much to fast.
If you have Leviathans DLC you can buy 5 rare resources of all 3 types from traders. Or you ca just buy them from market they cost around 10e.
It is very good to have use that 50k limit on energy, just to fix problems. Or buy alloys in bulk if war happens.

You can:
Change Economy Policy to Civic economy (increase goods) Food for rationalisation (reduce food), CHange main specie living standard to basic needs (less consumer goods). CHange trade to either Consumer Trade or Wealth creation (energy or consumer goods).
You can just switch off your labs and monuments and keep unemployed for a while, or replace labs with more civic factories.
Civic goods are generally good to buiy from market.
There are edicts to fix you. Or you can swap your civics (like Mining Guilds, Functional Architecture, Environmetalist) for max savings.

Sometimes you need to stop conquering (yes i know) and just set some defensive alliances, build that 2nd tier starport, and chill collecting some techs and traditions giving resources discount.

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

Yeah, i too think there was a massive, prolonged oversight to allow the game to go THAT bad from upgrading a single building. Overall, if upgrading a single building can kill your economy, your economy was already dead.

 

[Aliter Cogitent]

Couple things:

1) Most penalties that are displayed at the top are carried empire-wide, not for one building.
2) You just annexed right? There's probably more economic issues due to poor AI building management. The monthly income/deficit numbers do not update until the new month, so unless you scrambled to manage EACH of your newly annexed planets suddenly losing tons of economy the next month is expected.
3) Even if you're in the red, you can probably still recover by manually disabling those buildings. Alternatively, create vassal and do it over.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

(1) Disable/downgrade the buildings that consumes rare resources
(2) Save up Living Metal
(3) Sell Living Metal until you have enough cash to buy the smallest batch of Food and Minerals available on the market

That should reset your modifiers for one month and allow your economy to recover.

I understand how to extricate myself from economic collapse, but the fact that all production everywhere collapsed because one lone starbase lacked the correct resources to maintain itself is comical. It's like if in real life a silicon shortage caused all agriculture to stop. A deficiency in a rare resource should only affect units and structures that REQUIRE that rare resource via a maintenance cost.

This is surely a design oversight? There is no way that a lack of resources for a specific job on a single planet should suddenly tank productivity for all jobs across all planets.

Sure, it's an empire-wide shortage. But it should only apply to the buildings that rely on that resource. There is no reason why the other jobs should be affected if they don't actually use the resource.

^What they said. There is a great update somewhere in 2.2 but it is currently buried under multiple obvious bugs and insane game logic like what was described by the OP.

 

[Almond_Brown]

I am willing to bet, if your stability tanked and unrest skyrocketed, that your consumer goods ran out, which in turn pisses people off, which gimps other production/jobs, which in turn will gimp your entire economy. Something must have been running a deficit and was left unchecked - things can run in the red for as long as you have supplies of that resource - the moment your stockpile hits zero, that's when you hit the rocks.

What baffles me though, if your economy was booming, why you simply didn't buy from the market to top up? Dump excess minerals, make a few grand and replace whatever it was that you were short of. I quite often run a deficit on consumer goods but merely keep topping up on the market to stop them running out, but if you forget that one month and run out, jeebus, the whole thing hits the fan!

I would hate to think that was the cause. As I said, I went to enemy territory to fight, I may have gotten caught up in that for a time, but where did my ECO go? Before the war I was not required to BUY stuff as my ECO was working, ships paid for, and being out of Dock may have been an added strain but Holy Hanna... if that kills an economy that fast.

 

[Almond_Brown]

We're going to need more data than that. Got a save handy?

Of course, moving your ships from dock will increase maintenance costs somewhat.

I will Save scum and check what happened on that Front. I was way under Cap and had Energy flowing fairly well (so I thought hahaha). I will report if I find an issue not related to PLAYER stupidity with the new BETA test code. LOL!

 

[yerm]

The penalties just seem a bit too all or nothing. The only one I find decently done is mineral shortage, since it shutters purely mineral-drawing job outputs.

Ideally it would cause isolated shortages based on the amount of the deficiency, but I am sure that could get tricky. Having ALL related output hit is fine instead. Even things like a rare gas shortage hurting sublight speed would work. Having your entire economy blown? Come on. In this case, ALL specialists due to a rare mineral - pretty absurd.

I had a similar thing happen but this was more my own stupid fault. I had a caravaner offering ships get into a loop, and was in a brutal and losing war. I tried to liquidate down and buy ships, but didn't account for my new ships' upkeep properly. I think it was the cg shortage that broke me, but in any event, I was fully screwed and promptly lost the game.

I do love the new economy but it IS pretty unforgiving.

 

[Beyond Disbelief]

It's like if in real life a silicon shortage caused all agriculture to stop. A deficiency in a rare resource should only affect units and structures that REQUIRE that rare resource via a maintenance cost.

^What they said. There is a great update somewhere in 2.2 but it is currently buried under multiple obvious bugs and insane game logic like what was described by the OP.

The penalties just seem a bit too all or nothing. The only one I find decently done is mineral shortage, since it shutters purely mineral-drawing job outputs.

Ideally it would cause isolated shortages based on the amount of the deficiency, but I am sure that could get tricky. Having ALL related output hit is fine instead. Even things like a rare gas shortage hurting sublight speed would work. Having your entire economy blown? Come on. In this case, ALL specialists due to a rare mineral - pretty absurd.

I think they can incorporate this as a feature for policy choice between Command Economy and Free Economy.

What you guys are arguing makes sense in a socialist dictatorship economy but in a capitalistic world? What do you think would happen if there is in fact a pan-planetary global silicon shortage in your example? Do you think the big factories are going to meet up and say ok, I'll take a hit this month and you take a hit next month or I'll sacrifice my KPI for the next few years until the government fixes things to help your factories keep going? Nope. Each CEO/manager are after their own performance review and would do everything they can to undercut the competition and fight for those resources. Its abstracted into an empire-wide 25% penalty modifier but I'd say if you're playing as a ruler in a super high-level grand strategy/simulation game these kinds of conflict at the lower level comes with the territory, so I don't think its "insane and obvious bugs" as suggested.

Its a funny thing a relative of mine recently ran into this situation managing the inventory for their manufacturer. By the books their company totally had enough inventory, but individual teams were circumventing established processes cutting in line or what not and moving/reserving inventory around for their own team's needs and he had to go and fix up everyone's mess.

 

[yerm]

I think they can incorporate this as a feature for policy choice between Command Economy and Free Economy.

What you guys are arguing makes sense in a socialist dictatorship economy but in a capitalistic world? What do you think would happen if there is in fact a pan-planetary global silicon shortage in your example? Do you think the big factories are going to meet up and say ok, I'll take a hit this month and you take a hit next month or I'll sacrifice my KPI for the next few years until the government fixes things to help your factories keep going? Nope. Each CEO/manager are after their own performance review and would do everything they can to undercut the competition and fight for those resources. Its abstracted into an empire-wide 25% penalty modifier but I'd say if you're playing as a ruler in a super high-level grand strategy/simulation game these kinds of conflict at the lower level comes with the territory, so I don't think its "insane and obvious bugs" as suggested.

Its a funny thing a relative of mine recently ran into this situation managing the inventory for their manufacturer. By the books their company totally had enough inventory, but individual teams were circumventing established processes cutting in line or what not and moving/reserving inventory around for their own team's needs and he had to go and fix up everyone's mess.

I understand. The game is still too far in the all or nothing category. In reality, yes, a small shortage of one rare resource cold spiral up costs all over. The problem is that it happens all at once and spikes, rather than rising costs or something proportional. Likewise, things like food or cg shortages, if we are intending for realism, would bludgeon the lower classes while the rulers laugh it off (until unrest triggered a revolt).

I am not calling it a bug. I am suggesting that if I run out of crystals, and all my crystal-based processes halt, thats fine. Why do my unrelated industries?

 

[FiddleSticks96]

I think they can incorporate this as a feature for policy choice between Command Economy and Free Economy.

What you guys are arguing makes sense in a socialist dictatorship economy but in a capitalistic world?

I'm going to stop you right there. Ignoring the fact that you can actually be a socialist dictatorship in Stellaris, I am well aware of the long term economic impact a shortage in a resource can have in a real world economy; however, balance in a game rarely conforms to real life. Although table-top game balance does not have a direct correlation to video game balance there is still a correlation. As someone who has almost 20 years of experience as a Game Master in various table-top games I can tell you this with absolute certainty. There comes a point where realism reduces the value of the game. Yes, we all want and in fact need realism in our games. Without realism we have no vantage point with which we can understand the context or mechanics of a game; however, the more realistic you get, the less fun and balanced a game becomes. The fact that the OP experienced swift and total economic collapse because they had -1 to a single are resource tells me that the current state of the game's economic balance is in desperate need of attention. Sure, in real life, a crippling shortage of a resource causes problems at every level of a nation's economy, if you can call "-1" a crippling shortage anyway, but it is absurd to think that a single misstep should cause a game over screen in a game that requires as much time as stellaris.

All that being said, perhaps a cumulative penalty that caps at 25% would be a better solution rather than immediate total economic collapse? This is just a spit-ball number, but a cumulative -0.5% penalty to specialist output per month, capping a -25%, may be a way to represent realism while also keeping the game balanced. This will give you time to get you house in order. It also represents the growing strain on your economy while accounting for things like private reserves.

 

[Beyond Disbelief]

I understand. The game is still too far in the all or nothing category. In reality, yes, a small shortage of one rare resource cold spiral up costs all over. The problem is that it happens all at once and spikes, rather than rising costs or something proportional. Likewise, things like food or cg shortages, if we are intending for realism, would bludgeon the lower classes while the rulers laugh it off (until unrest triggered a revolt).

All that being said, perhaps a cumulative penalty that caps at 25% would be a better solution rather than immediate total economic collapse? This is just a spit-ball number, but a cumulative -0.5% penalty to specialist output per month, capping a -25%, may be a way to represent realism while also keeping the game balanced. This will give you time to get you house in order. It also represents the growing strain on your economy while accounting for things like private reserves.

Ok, I didn't mean to escalate so I'll just quote the parts I can agree with. My post was contending to characterizations such as "comical" and "insanely obvious" which I find to be too extreme a stance to take.

The parts I'm quoting here are parts I can get on board with.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

Ok, I didn't mean to escalate so I'll just quote the parts I can agree with. My post was contending to characterizations such as "comical" and "insanely obvious" which I find to be too extreme a stance to take.

The parts I'm quoting here are parts I can get on board with.

It doesn't seem to me like you escalated anything, although I am the type of person who lacks in social grace, so maybe I'm too oblivious to notice these things. If I came across as antagonistic I apologize, as that was not my intention.

I do consider immediate total economic collapse due to having a -1 production to a rare resource to be an obvious and extreme case though. Stellaris is supposed to be a game where you can customize an empire and play it your way; however, 2.2 has such a rigid economy that there are even fewer valid competitive builds than ever before. It all just seems counter-intuitive to me.

 

[yerm]

If stellaris was based in reality, shared burden would start you in an economic death spiral regardless, multiethnic empires would spike crime, mars would not be a good terraforming candidate, and after 100 years the first wave of colonists who reached your starting expansion worlds would finally have their first messages announcing their arrival reaching your homeworld.

Alas.

 

[AlanC9]

I do consider immediate total economic collapse due to having a -1 production to a rare resource to be an obvious and extreme case though. Stellaris is supposed to be a game where you can customize an empire and play it your way; however, 2.2 has such a rigid economy that there are even fewer valid competitive builds than ever before.

What on earth do you mean by this? If you're running a surplus in anything you can't run out of anything, thanks to the market.

2.2 punishes players for being stupid, or color-blind, but besides that?

 

[FiddleSticks96]

What on earth do you mean by this? If you're running a surplus in anything you can't run out of anything, thanks to the market.

2.2 punishes players for being stupid, or color-blind, but besides that?

1) I'm talking about the situation the OP described. Falling into the red in one rare resource should not cause you to immediately suffer a -25% output to all specialists. This situation reminds me of how starvation used to penalize food production, causing an endless spiral of death. It is not "stupid" to upgrade a starbase and then become confused why your entire economy immediately collapsed right afterwards.

2) As someone who is very much colorblind, I find your comment hilarious.