Irresponsible Marketing

[unmerged(24336)]

This is my first post on this forum, and I have been forced to utilize it to seek answers because the game is not playable without a great deal of clarification concerning "how to use" the world trade, population, RGO/Factory development, and Budget interfaces. This information is NOT provided for in either the rule-book or the read-me file which comes with the game as purchased.

My position is that it is irresponsible for a company to market a game which is not immediately playable once purchased, but instead requires extra online reseach time and effort simply to start effective play.

I LIKE strategy games, and such games are, perforce, more complicated than the first-person shooter types more popular with kids these days. However, since complexity is inherent in strategy games it is incumbent upon the marketers to insure that clear and concise instructions are provided which cover such complexities.

If the manuals are too "costly" to print and produce, (an excuse I have heard time and again regarding Hearts of Iron and Europa Universalis II), then the creators should include a TUTORIAL which walks players through each interface. A tutorial would utilize a small nation, preferably with at least one coastal province and port, one developed colony, and sufficient home provinces to demonstrate RGO and factory development and population recognition and usage.

At the present time I am confused about the following interfaces:

(1) Budget: No matter what action I take based upon previous experiences with Hearts of Iron and Europa, I cannot get a balanced budget.

(2) RGO: How do I determine when and where expansion of Resources is needed or advisable?

(3) Factory Expansion: How do I determine when and where expansion of factories is needed or advisable?

(4) Population Types and Usage: There is a lot of population information, but nowhere in either the manual or the read-me does it tell me (a) how I know what numbers apply to my RGO or Factory needs, (b) how to identify the ratio of workers to RGO/Factory usage already established at the start of the game, or (c) how/why I should or should not attempt to modify it.

(5) World Trade: I think I understand the basics of world trade, at least so far as to tell my system what levels to seel or buy at...but I do not understand how this affects my internal tax and RGO/Factory development, or how I can affect them through using it.

The BOTTOM LINE: I have no idea how to identify population usages in order to develop RGO/Factory growth or reduction and I don't know how to balance my budget properly so that income and outflow do not wreck my economy and deplete my military forces.

Before someone tells me to go to the "FAQ" section I already have, and already looked at all the "helpful" discussions referred to which havent been much help to me so far at all.

I have an AIM sn of raverkid00 and if anyone who thinks they can help me would like to say hi, please feel free to do so.

 

[unmerged(22196)]

1: Depends on nation most civilized it's enough to start with redusing military budget and navy(NOT Army) maintenace. Then increase taxes and tariffs until you get above balance. 50/50 often works good in the beginning.

2: Expansion of RGO's only increase amount of POP's allowed to work there and is rarely needed.

3: Expanding factories will, like RGO's, increase amount of POP's allowed to work in them. Do you have a state with available craftsmen/clerks and a factory producing something you want more of, then expand.

4: Don't quite know what your getting at here.

5: Your RGO's and factories produses products sold on the WM that in turn pay your POP's wich you tax. The POP's then uses their cash to buy wanted goods from the WM wich you subzidise or tax.

 

[unmerged(16875)]

You may find help more forthcoming if you avoid sweeping declarations of irresponsibility.

(1) Budget: No matter what action I take based upon previous experiences with Hearts of Iron and Europa, I cannot get a balanced budget.

(2) RGO: How do I determine when and where expansion of Resources is needed or advisable?

(3) Factory Expansion: How do I determine when and where expansion of factories is needed or advisable?

(4) Population Types and Usage: There is a lot of population information, but nowhere in either the manual or the read-me does it tell me (a) how I know what numbers apply to my RGO or Factory needs, (b) how to identify the ratio of workers to RGO/Factory usage already established at the start of the game, or (c) how/why I should or should not attempt to modify it.

(5) World Trade: I think I understand the basics of world trade, at least so far as to tell my system what levels to seel or buy at...but I do not understand how this affects my internal tax and RGO/Factory development, or how I can affect them through using it.

The BOTTOM LINE: I have no idea how to identify population usages in order to develop RGO/Factory growth or reduction and I don't know how to balance my budget properly so that income and outflow do not wreck my economy and deplete my military forces.

I was completely overwhelmed at first, but trial and error proved invaluable. Most of these things, you just need to get a "feel" for...that said, I'll try to help.

1. At first, it's impossible. Really. Every country I've played goes into debt to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars for the first decade or so - that money goes to factories, investments, conversions, and all the other things that make a stable base. DEBT IS GOOD. Think how hard it would be to buy a house without a mortgage - same here. You need to help it along, of course - low education spending, reduce mil maintenance, high taxes, etc.

2. I play industry-heavy, and with major powers. So this might just be me, but I only expand an RGO if (a) I see a bunch of farmers/laborers doing nothing and goods aren't available for conversions or (b) decide that my industry needs more of a raw material, and I don't want to buy it on the WM.

3. Is the factory producing something you want to produce more of? Do you have one or no empty spots at that factory (one is good to encourage immigration)? If yes to either, expand.

4. Not sure what exactly you want to know here...to see if your factories are fully staffed, go to page nine or ten in the ledger. There's an RGO page in there somewhere, too. In the same neighborhood is a table with an "unassigned" column. Keep that value as low as possible - no point in having a POP not doing work for you.

5. Figure out what the most of any resource you'd ever need is. I.E., it takes X lumber, cement and steel to expand a railroad. If you're not producing that resource, set it to buy up to that level. If you are producing that resource, set it to sell over that level. It's not connected to taxes - your POPs buy what they need from the world market, not the government stockpile.

Best wishes, and have FUN.

 

[unmerged(24197)]

I want to know too

This is my first post on this forum, and I have been forced to utilize it to seek answers because the game is not playable without a great deal of clarification concerning "how to use" the world trade, population, RGO/Factory development, and Budget interfaces. This information is NOT provided for in either the rule-book or the read-me file which comes with the game as purchased.

My position is that it is irresponsible for a company to market a game which is not immediately playable once purchased, but instead requires extra online reseach time and effort simply to start effective play.

I LIKE strategy games, and such games are, perforce, more complicated than the first-person shooter types more popular with kids these days. However, since complexity is inherent in strategy games it is incumbent upon the marketers to insure that clear and concise instructions are provided which cover such complexities.

If the manuals are too "costly" to print and produce, (an excuse I have heard time and again regarding Hearts of Iron and Europa Universalis II), then the creators should include a TUTORIAL which walks players through each interface. A tutorial would utilize a small nation, preferably with at least one coastal province and port, one developed colony, and sufficient home provinces to demonstrate RGO and factory development and population recognition and usage.

At the present time I am confused about the following interfaces:

(1) Budget: No matter what action I take based upon previous experiences with Hearts of Iron and Europa, I cannot get a balanced budget.

(2) RGO: How do I determine when and where expansion of Resources is needed or advisable?

(3) Factory Expansion: How do I determine when and where expansion of factories is needed or advisable?

(4) Population Types and Usage: There is a lot of population information, but nowhere in either the manual or the read-me does it tell me (a) how I know what numbers apply to my RGO or Factory needs, (b) how to identify the ratio of workers to RGO/Factory usage already established at the start of the game, or (c) how/why I should or should not attempt to modify it.

(5) World Trade: I think I understand the basics of world trade, at least so far as to tell my system what levels to seel or buy at...but I do not understand how this affects my internal tax and RGO/Factory development, or how I can affect them through using it.

The BOTTOM LINE: I have no idea how to identify population usages in order to develop RGO/Factory growth or reduction and I don't know how to balance my budget properly so that income and outflow do not wreck my economy and deplete my military forces.

Before someone tells me to go to the "FAQ" section I already have, and already looked at all the "helpful" discussions referred to which havent been much help to me so far at all.

I have an AIM sn of raverkid00 and if anyone who thinks they can help me would like to say hi, please feel free to do so.

I'd like some "definitive" answers from the company too instead of guesses from the customer base who think they have it figured out. The manual stinks and from the forums things tend to sound almost opposite of what it says. I love strategy games and I like this game so far. But I'm already after one week finding myself not playing it because I feel stupid when I get romped by the AI at the lowest setting. It should not be a prerequisite to have to play another game first (HOI or the Universalis games) to understand this one.

 

[unmerged(3474)]

1. At first, it's impossible. Really. Every country I've played goes into debt to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars for the first decade or so - that money goes to factories, investments, conversions, and all the other things that make a stable base. DEBT IS GOOD. Think how hard it would be to buy a house without a mortgage - same here. You need to help it along, of course - low education spending, reduce mil maintenance, high taxes, etc.

This depends on the nation you play. For example, with the Netherlands you can produce enormous surpluses right from the beginning of a Grand Campaign. Colonies can help your net income greatly since you can produce a fair amount of tax revenue and even more significantly tariff income without paying full education and crime fighting costs. I generally never pay crime fighting at all - maybe in the late game if my government's income is sound. Also, if you minimize your defense spending and army/navy maintenance during peace times, you will have a better chance of balancing your budget. Debt can be a problem if you don't expect fairly quick returns on your investments (factory/railroad/colony upgrades) because you start adding debt from your interest expenses. Don't ignore tarriffs either - they can rapidly raise POP consciousness, but its a way to quickly move your POP's cash reserves to your government.

2. I play industry-heavy, and with major powers. So this might just be me, but I only expand an RGO if (a) I see a bunch of farmers/laborers doing nothing and goods aren't available for conversions or (b) decide that my industry needs more of a raw material, and I don't want to buy it on the WM.

I don't ever expand RGOs unless the RGO is producing something I cannot buy on the World Market or is insanely profitable (due to multiple Aristocrat POPs in the same State).

3. Is the factory producing something you want to produce more of? Do you have one or no empty spots at that factory (one is good to encourage immigration)? If yes to either, expand.

I don't ever expand factories - if I need a second level of a factory, I just build a separate one in another province. However, if you don't have many States, or you have a rail network that is concentrated in one State, you may want to expand a factory rather than building a second one in another State. I am always afraid of the "Factory is Destroyed" event.

4. Not sure what exactly you want to know here...to see if your factories are fully staffed, go to page nine or ten in the ledger. There's an RGO page in there somewhere, too. In the same neighborhood is a table with an "unassigned" column. Keep that value as low as possible - no point in having a POP not doing work for you.

I agree except that some factories are so inefficient in the early game that unemployed craftsmen/clerks are better than ones in those factories.

5. Figure out what the most of any resource you'd ever need is. I.E., it takes X lumber, cement and steel to expand a railroad. If you're not producing that resource, set it to buy up to that level. If you are producing that resource, set it to sell over that level. It's not connected to taxes - your POPs buy what they need from the world market, not the government stockpile.

I always use the AI to make my trades. Some certain products I will uncheck to set my own trades, but only if I'm afraid the AI isn't saving up enough lumber or something.

 

[Grosshaus]

If the manuals are too "costly" to print and produce, (an excuse I have heard time and again regarding Hearts of Iron and Europa Universalis II), then the creators should include a TUTORIAL which walks players through each interface. A tutorial would utilize a small nation, preferably with at least one coastal province and port, one developed colony, and sufficient home provinces to demonstrate RGO and factory development and population recognition and usage.

The problem isn't the printing costs, it's because the game developed a lot after the manual was sent to be printed. Also a lot has changed in patches, have you read the patch informations as well? They don't explain much, but at least you know which things aren't as in manual. Previous Paradox tutorials have been quite buggy, so they decided to focus on finishing the game as much as possible in time instead of spending resources on it.

(2) RGO: How do I determine when and where expansion of Resources is needed or advisable?

Only if you have more farmers/labourers (depending on the resource of the province) that fits in the current ones in the province.

(3) Factory Expansion: How do I determine when and where expansion of factories is needed or advisable?

Where you have the needed pop types, half craftsmen and half clerks, 5 together to firstlevel factory. Naturally if you have the goods to upgrade other pops, then build where you think it's best to upgrade them. That depends on what resources are valuable and what you need, it might not be wise to upgrade coal miners to craftsmen if you don't have other sources of coal but instead upgrade perhaps some grain farmers.

(4) Population Types and Usage: There is a lot of population information, but nowhere in either the manual or the read-me does it tell me (a) how I know what numbers apply to my RGO or Factory needs, (b) how to identify the ratio of workers to RGO/Factory usage already established at the start of the game, or (c) how/why I should or should not attempt to modify it.

a)huh?
b)you can click on the factories and rgos to find out who works where and there is a page in ledger where you can sort provinces in order of the number of unemployed pops and such.
c)look at 2&3

(5) World Trade: I think I understand the basics of world trade, at least so far as to tell my system what levels to seel or buy at...but I do not understand how this affects my internal tax and RGO/Factory development, or how I can affect them through using it.

There isn't much direct effect, naturally factories producing expensive items out of cheap materials are more profitable. Pops buy all their goods from WM not from you, so if the prices are high their cash reserves deplete easier. But if you produce much the price of the good gets lower, or at least is meant to get lower. I didn't quite understand what you mean by this question actually, I hope this helped.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Merged the two threads with identical topics & opening posts.

 

[Belissarius]

Well its not paradox but the publishers that determine the max. manual size and the amount of ingame text a game can have. its part of their marketing so they can sell thrid party "strategy guides". I agree that manuals suck and I have been critical of whole thing and i wish paradox would create a on-line maual with offical responces BUT I beleive they are contratualy bound not to do so, so as not underminde their publishers/distributor's ability to sell the strategy guides.

"BUT there isnt a strategy guide to be had anyway!" Correct but the publisher wants teh ability/rights to do so anyway just incase Victoria becomes the sleeper hit of the year.

 

[unmerged(24060)]

NO!!
No way they are getting away this time.
Will put them in front of a court as soon as we can figure wich one is apte.

There is NO manual.
The paper sheets (in color) in the box is NOT the manual of the game "Victoria: an empire under the sun".

But what is it then?
Color paper?
Its a juridic document. If it wasnot there we could have ask for a refound because the product was found incomplete.
I am not keeding.

 

[OriginalRafiki]

There is a manual, stating that there isn't, and that the booklet included is best used for toilet paper (as some have claimed) is overly dramatic and seems a poor starting point for a sensible discussion.

I have no problem accepting and understanding that there are different views about how good the manual is (I don't think it's that good myself), but please approach it constructively instead of digging the deepest trench you can about it.

Quite a few have found udeful information in the manual, so there must be something you can use from it.....

Besides, Paradox have provided these forums, which in my opinion are quite a nice "appendix" to the manual, even if Paradox staff themselves aren't that much involved in the discussions taking place here, they still provide the hardware and software the forums are running on (I think )

Rafiki

 

[Darkrenown]

NO!!
No way they are getting away this time.
Will put them in front of a court as soon as we can figure wich one is apte.

Hahaha

 

[OriginalRafiki]

Hahaha

My only surprise was that he didn't suggest a firing squad

Rafiki

 

[unmerged(16133)]

My only surprise was that he didn't suggest a firing squad

Rafiki

What with the price of ammunition?

 

[stylian]

Factory overheads...

Guys, keep in mind that building up unneeded industrial capacity can result in a financial disaster. I am not talking about the building cost and the cost for the material but about the overheads once you 've built them. In case you opt to build a factory, but have no clothes or furniture in order to convert farmers or workers to craftmen in a certain province, let it better be...

Make sure first you have have enough stocks of needed goods for the conversion and then go ahead, with the factory building... While the factory is buing constructed, you can keep the farmers and workers labouring in the RGOs...

 

[unmerged(11929)]

(2) RGO: How do I determine when and where expansion of Resources is needed or advisable?

(3) Factory Expansion: How do I determine when and where expansion of factories is needed or advisable?

First, turn on the computer. Then, hold the little mouse carefully... You expand an RGO/factory when it is almost full or full, of course. Why bother expanding when it's running way under capacity? I thought that was just common sense.

(4) Population Types and Usage: There is a lot of population information, but nowhere in either the manual or the read-me does it tell me (a) how I know what numbers apply to my RGO or Factory needs, (b) how to identify the ratio of workers to RGO/Factory usage already established at the start of the game, or (c) how/why I should or should not attempt to modify it.

But then again, you said you didn't know how many POPs an RGO/factory needs. In which case, all it needs is one try to find out how many it needs.

The manual describes the types of POPs and what they do quite clearly and both the manual and the release notes say how many clerks you can have in a factory. There is no "best" ratio, it depends on what you want to do and what technologies you have. This bit is less clear, but what is the point of having a document that says "Put 1 clerk and 4 craftmen in each factory from 1836 to 1850, then convert the 1 clerk to capitalist in 1851 and put another craftman in all your factories. Voila, you will win every time."??

I'm not criticising, but genuinely curious. This is a strategy game after all. We are supposed to find a way to win ourselves. Game control wise, I think the manual is sufficient.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

There is a manual, stating that there isn't, and that the booklet included is best used for toilet paper (as some have claimed) is overly dramatic and seems a poor starting point for a sensible discussion.

I have no problem accepting and understanding that there are different views about how good the manual is (I don't think it's that good myself), but please approach it constructively instead of digging the deepest trench you can about it.

Quite a few have found udeful information in the manual, so there must be something you can use from it.....

Besides, Paradox have provided these forums, which in my opinion are quite a nice "appendix" to the manual, even if Paradox staff themselves aren't that much involved in the discussions taking place here, they still provide the hardware and software the forums are running on (I think )

Rafiki

Just have to say this is an excellent post, Rafiki!

 

[Dark Knight]

NO!!
No way they are getting away this time.
Will put them in front of a court as soon as we can figure wich one is apte.

There is NO manual.
The paper sheets (in color) in the box is NOT the manual of the game "Victoria: an empire under the sun".

But what is it then?
Color paper?
Its a juridic document. If it wasnot there we could have ask for a refound because the product was found incomplete.
I am not keeding.

If your personal copy of Victoria didn't include a manual, then you should complain to whoever you purchased the game from or to the publisher of your version. Victoria includes a manual.

 

[unmerged(10564)]

Victoria does not include a tutorial due to the interest of keeping piracy low and thus making buyers of pirated copies more difficult to learn how to play. Nevermind the "legitimate" customers who feel that having a tutorial would surely help how to play...

There already have been many arguments about this position....

 

[unmerged(10564)]

Besides, Paradox have provided these forums, which in my opinion are quite a nice "appendix" to the manual, even if Paradox staff themselves aren't that much involved in the discussions taking place here, they still provide the hardware and software the forums are running on (I think )

Rafiki

I agree with Rafiki. This is the best place where to learn how to play and evacuate your doubts.
:rofl:

 

[OriginalRafiki]

If your personal copy of Victoria didn't include a manual, then you should complain to whoever you purchased the game from or to the publisher of your version. Victoria includes a manual.

DK, I think you're missing his point; there was a manual in his box, but he doesn't consider it to qualify as such....

Rafiki