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Kaspar Osraige

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It was not represented as a separate religion in Victoria II, but I think with all the radicals abd socialists around and a policy of state atheism, we should have irreligious pops, especially in higher literacy and certain cultural techs unlocked. This would represent many countries and the time span a lot better, and could be integrated into the game more with stuff like irreligion increasing spawning reactionaries or clergy's anger. What else could be done?
 
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The best way to represent this in my opinion would definitely be irreligion as just another religion (maybe two if you want to split it between the radicals and the non-radicals) which POPs would, under the right conditions (e.g. "I'm in a communist country so religion is banned/That was one devastating Great War/We just lost a Crusade/Jihad against an animist OPM"), slowly convert into starting in the mid-game. Having irreligious POPs angering the clergy and/or spawning reactionary rebellions sounds like something that could play off of religious policy.
 
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The best way to represent this in my opinion would definitely be irreligion as just another religion (maybe two if you want to split it between the radicals and the non-radicals) which POPs would, under the right conditions (e.g. "I'm in a communist country so religion is banned/That was one devastating Great War/We just lost a Crusade/Jihad against an animist OPM"), slowly convert into starting in the mid-game. Having irreligious POPs angering the clergy and/or spawning reactionary rebellions sounds like something that could play off of religious policy.
Couldnt have said it better myself.
 

Ololorium

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Representing lack of religious views or atheism as separate religions would be the most straightforward solution, but it can lead to absurd situations. For example, normally the Clergy and the Devout interest group would support whatever state religion we have and policies that increase conversion rate etc. But if the state "religion" is Atheism or Secularism, that wouldn't make sense. I mean, there can be devout atheists (Soviet Union) or secularists (Kemalist Turkey, maybe also France), but definitely not among the Clergy. So a lot of careful special handling would be required in that case.
 
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In general I wonder how minority religions will deal with the Devout interest group. In some cases the majority and minority work together, like how both zealous Protestants and Catholics in the United States supported the temperance movement. On the other hand, the Anglican clergy in Britain should be opposed to Catholic emancipation while the Catholics naturally support it. What will make Catholics support the Devout group in America but not in Britain? Perhaps religious laws can make the difference, where pluralist or secular laws allow different religions to be aligned rather than opposed.
 
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In general I wonder how minority religions will deal with the Devout interest group. In some cases the majority and minority work together, like how both zealous Protestants and Catholics in the United States supported the temperance movement. On the other hand, the Anglican clergy in Britain should be opposed to Catholic emancipation while the Catholics naturally support it. What will make Catholics support the Devout group in America but not in Britain? Perhaps religious laws can make the difference, where pluralist or secular laws allow different religions to be aligned rather than opposed.
I'm interested in the relationships between minorities and interest groups in general. So far we don't know anything about that, probably because it's still work in progress.
 
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The best way to represent this in my opinion would definitely be irreligion as just another religion (maybe two if you want to split it between the radicals and the non-radicals) which POPs would, under the right conditions (e.g. "I'm in a communist country so religion is banned/That was one devastating Great War/We just lost a Crusade/Jihad against an animist OPM"), slowly convert into starting in the mid-game. Having irreligious POPs angering the clergy and/or spawning reactionary rebellions sounds like something that could play off of religious policy.
I'm gonna disagree with you here. I think the level of religiosity should be one of a pop's and political party's political traits. It should not be a separate religion though. That's because even most irreligious people still practice, to some extent, their (or their ancestor's) religion's customs. Take for example Napoleon. From all accounts Napoleon was not at all religious(except maybe just before he died), invaded the Vatican, imprisoned the pope a couple times and was excommunicated.

Yet at the same time he still followed Catholic traditions. His marriage was performed by Catholic clergy, he had a monogamous marriage as a Catholic Christian, he baptized his son as a Catholic and he actively worked with Catholics (read: told them what do) in France and lands he conquered and overall is considered to be a Roman Catholic.

This is pretty much something you see everywhere. For example Russia re-embraced Orthodox Christianity even after decades of State Atheist Communist rule. Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, based his vision for Israel for a large part on Jewish scripture despite being strongly atheist himself.
 
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I'm gonna disagree with you here. I think the level of religiosity should be one of a pop's and political party's political traits. It should not be a separate religion though. That's because even most irreligious people still practice, to some extent, their (or their ancestor's) religion's customs.
Yes, some kind of religiosity meter ranging from fanatic to atheist instead of a completely different religion to represent the non-religious would make sense. People would be happy if the state's religious policies are close to their own views and vice versa. Victoria 2 implemented somewhat similar system, but it didn't quite work because views on religion were just one of many issues people could have, so some pops could ignore religion completely, not caring at all if they lived under religious fundamentalist or militant atheist regime.
 
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Representing lack of religious views or atheism as separate religions would be the most straightforward solution, but it can lead to absurd situations. For example, normally the Clergy and the Devout interest group would support whatever state religion we have and policies that increase conversion rate etc. But if the state "religion" is Atheism or Secularism, that wouldn't make sense. I mean, there can be devout atheists (Soviet Union) or secularists (Kemalist Turkey, maybe also France), but definitely not among the Clergy. So a lot of careful special handling would be required in that case.
The “Four Horsemen” are kind of an atheist clergy
 
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I'm gonna disagree with you here. I think the level of religiosity should be one of a pop's and political party's political traits. It should not be a separate religion though. That's because even most irreligious people still practice, to some extent, their (or their ancestor's) religion's customs. Take for example Napoleon. From all accounts Napoleon was not at all religious(except maybe just before he died), invaded the Vatican, imprisoned the pope a couple times and was excommunicated.

Yet at the same time he still followed Catholic traditions. His marriage was performed by Catholic clergy, he had a monogamous marriage as a Catholic Christian, he baptized his son as a Catholic and he took an actively worked with Catholics (read: told them what do) in France and lands he conquered and overall is considered to be a Roman Catholic.

This is pretty much something you see everywhere. For example Russia re-embraced Orthodox Christianity even after decades of State Atheist Communist rule. Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, based his vision for Israel for a large part on Jewish scripture despite being strongly atheist himself.
Agreed. Irrilegious people are, for instance, Christians who only attend church at Easter - they don't care much about it but they're still steeped in their religion's culture. That gives them more in common with religious people of the same faith than with irreligious ones of different faiths (at least in that time period). With outright atheism there's a degree of shared experience and ideas no matter what religious background they come from so that could be made a 'religion' (painful though it may be to use that oxymoronic term for it) but only if it's detached from any clergy mechanisms.
 
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It makes sense for atheism/secularism to be implemented since a) there was definitely the appetite to rebuild a society without religion in the time period among some theorists, and b) "rebuilding your society as theorised by someone" appears to be one of the main draws of the game.
 
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I'm wondering if clergy will once again be put in charge of education and if so, how education will be handled in secular and atheist societies.
 

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The best way to represent this in my opinion would definitely be irreligion as just another religion (maybe two if you want to split it between the radicals and the non-radicals) which POPs would, under the right conditions (e.g. "I'm in a communist country so religion is banned/That was one devastating Great War/We just lost a Crusade/Jihad against an animist OPM"), slowly convert into starting in the mid-game. Having irreligious POPs angering the clergy and/or spawning reactionary rebellions sounds like something that could play off of religious policy.
Probably the most elegant solution, your “religion” is atheist, your religious stance mostly dictates your level of radicalism with it being inverted in the case of atheism. ie. Radical muslims and christians are moralist and less extreme are pluralist or secular while radical atheists support state atheism and less radical ones support secularism, pluralism, or even moralism.
 
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I'm wondering if clergy will once again be put in charge of education and if so, how education will be handled in secular and atheist societies.
Generally, at least in the beginning of the period, clerics were definitely in charge of education. By the end of the period we already had a separate "teacher" class which cannot be identified with Christian clergy, at the least. However, if we have an Atheist (or at least a Secularist) religion, it's easy to see that the teachers are mostly responsible for spreading the doctrines of positivism, determinism and belief in progress that characterised 19th and 20th Century Secularism. If so, they would be essentially equivalent to clergy of other religions, so why exactly have two mechanisms?
 
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Generally, at least in the beginning of the period, clerics were definitely in charge of education. By the end of the period we already had a separate "teacher" class which cannot be identified with Christian clergy, at the least. However, if we have an Atheist (or at least a Secularist) religion, it's easy to see that the teachers are mostly responsible for spreading the doctrines of positivism, determinism and belief in progress that characterised 19th and 20th Century Secularism. If so, they would be essentially equivalent to clergy of other religions, so why exactly have two mechanisms?
Yeah, that's how it was in Vicky 2. A lean yet overly abstract approach that I hope will be overhauled in the new game. I can see a couple problems with it, both cosmetic and mechanical.

First of all, with the new Interest Group mechanic, you'd think the clergy would be opposed to secularism and atheism and strive, through campaigning or more direct and violent action, for a more religious society – ideally, for a society dominated by their own religion. An atheist state would end up in a very bizarre situation where it'd have to rely on a hostile social group for public education. I mean, you could create a special kind of 'irreligious' clergy pops supported by the state (unlike the traditional clergy that is being repressed) and focused entirely on teaching and not on promoting religion in any way but a) You might as well just make them a separate pop class called educators at that point, and b) That'd create another weird abstraction because there's no way teachers themselves cannot be religious or support a religious Interest Group.

Clergy was a strange class in Vic2 anyway. They had very little purpose apart from being educators because religion was basically irrelevant in the game. You couldn't interact with religious institutions in any way, there was no state religion (well there technically was but it barely meant anything), there were no sectarian conflicts or other interactions between religious groups, no relation between the number of clergy and the speed at which other pops convert to their religion, etc. The reasoning was, religion played a much smaller role in the 19th century society so there was no need to simulate religions in any significant way.
Which may be true for European countries but not necessarily for other parts of the world. I could totally imagine religious conflicts between Muslim branches in the Middle East or Africa, official persecution of Judaists in the Russian Empire, or even movements opposing Catholicism in the US. With the new Interest Group mechanic, religion may become a major issue in any country's internal politics. You could support one group over another, mediate between hostile denominations, fund religious institutions, or you could just declare yourself an atheist state and persecute all religions equally. Clergy would finally have something to do in the society apart from just bumping literacy.

And with that, you could finally unbind bumping literacy from clergy. I mean, yes, at some point in history, priests were indeed in charge of education. But the 19–20th centuries were the times when they were largely replaced by secular educators, and I believe it'd be nice to have this kind of change represented in a game that is all about societal change.

Buildings are a major mechanic of Victoria 3, if devs' comments are to be believed. They are where pops work and perform their duties. I bet schools will be in the game, but who are they going to be staffed by? The clergy? That'd work for madrasahs and parochial schools but what about general public or private schools? Industrial schools? Universities? Could they also be manned by middle-class professionals like clerks or machinists? Wouldn't that liberate the education system? Have schools, can teach; it's up to you and your internal policies whether it's done by clergymen or secular teachers, or both.

And last but not least, "you have state atheism so pretend your clergy are now irreligious teachers" sounds like a half-arsed handwave. It's like having the player plop down factories by hand and telling them to pretend they have laissez-faire. Wait a second... OH SHI––!
 
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Ololorium

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But the 19–20th centuries were the times when they were largely replaced by secular educators, and I believe it'd be nice to have this kind of change represented in a game that is all about societal change.
Yes, it would be really cool to see the player funding religious institutions to bump literacy up to some point when mass secular education is invented, and the player would want to switch to that, because it's more efficient, but the Clergy doesn't want to lose money and influence and fights back. So if you funded the Clergy well in the early game you get more literacy, but it will be harder to switch to more efficient system because the Clergy is more influential from all the funding you gave them over the years.

Edit: I re-read the reddit post and apparently it will be represented in the game!
 

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