Ironman is a flawed concept and should be abolished

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I'd also like to note that both the Civilization and Total War franchises allow achievements with mods, and everyone's pretty much been fine with it.

Total War achievements are the worse. 90% of them is either win as X, win as X on Hard/legendary or do X Multyplayer thingies. EU 4, on the other hand, asks you to do something as X, not just see the victory screen.

I think it should be noted how achievements are structured differently between these games.
 
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It would be great if they has a two tier system of achievements, one for regular play, and one for iron man. Heck, just make it so that you color code the achievements so people know if you did them on iron man or not. Paradox is too obsessed with ironman.
 
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Total War achievements are the worse. 90% of them is either win as X, win as X on Hard/legendary or do X Multyplayer thingies. EU 4, on the other hand, asks you to do something as X, not just see the victory screen.

I think it should be noted how achievements are structured differently between these games.
PDS games all have some stinker achievements of their own. Way too many are based on puns or memes rather than what makes for good gameplay experiences. Many have descriptions that are misleading or outright wrong (e.g. Balkan Powder Keg in HoI4, Sakoku Law in EU4). Others still are essentially just RNG-checks either from the starting position (e.g. Russian minors) or, worse, from the mechanics of the achievements themselves (e.g. Pheasant Strut in EU4, Galatron in Stellaris, Getting the Band Back Together in HoI4).
 
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I'd also like to note that both the Civilization and Total War franchises allow achievements with mods, and everyone's pretty much been fine with it.
As far as I'm concerned, the biggest problem is not mods but console commands. I would vote against allowing gameplay-changing mods for achievements, but I can imagine a case for letting players who spent time supercharging their faction of the day using mods get their Steam badges. On the other hand, they would be *completely* pointless if typing 'annex_TAG' was a legitimate way to obtain them.
 
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As I said earlier, there’s a massive satisfaction difference between knowing you got the achievement and actually having the achievement. Humans pshycology is weird like that.
It was sarcastic towards OP. I do love fame myself and I agree with what you said. I just pointed the inconsistency between wanting achievements and no limit rules to have them.
 
Yes. I mean it. I think Ironman mode is a bad idea. Look, I do not want people gaming achievements as much as you do. But there a several reasons Ironman mode is useless to make that happen. Here are my reasons why:
1. Save scumming: Ironman does not allow save scumming. You have one save and one save only. Except you can do that very easily. All you need to do is copy an ironman save game before doing a bad decision and if you don't like it, you can paste it back. you can even save several saves in a special folder and just use the ones with the best RNG or the best results. Anyone can save scum in ironman. It is not hard, just a little inconvenient. But if people want to, they can. this does not disable achievements.
2. Autosaves: Autosaves kill performance. This is not to be argued. Many people have problems with that. If I skip a decade in EU4 in ironman mode, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the time is waiting for autosaves to be completed.
3. Console: The console cannot be used in ironman, except that it can. You can even google it. There are several videos on the topic. So ironman is again only an inconvenience.
4. Elitists are not chad: being elitist is virgin, not chad. You can be proud of your own deeds without spoiling others their games.
5. EU4 is stilled bugged and ironman can go gamebreaking: yes, but mostly other titles like HOI4 and Imperator.

After all that: I ask you: What benefits does ironman mode provide for anyone?

But 5 is a reason to have 1, I think.

My Lithuania campaign. I was playing for the achievements "Uncommonwealth" (form the PLC as Lit) and "Grand Duchy" (have 1000 dev, while staying a Duchy).
The UI told me a million times, if I form the PLC, I keep the Duchy rank. So I went for forcing the PU on Poland, did all the other stuff and formed PLC diplomatically at Adm Tech 10. "Uncommonwealth" achieved and congrats "your nation is now a Kingdom". "Grand Duchy" not possible anymore.
Simple case of UI telling not the truth.
As I have a backup save for every ingame year, I could reroll several decades back. So instead of the PU on Poland I used the alternative strategy of eating him up bit by bit. Giving me the development of his provinces, so I could first make the "Grand Duchy" and then form the PLC militarily.
Without this savescumming I would have left the game. Plain and simple.

In the end everyone is responsible for himself.
Yes, it is possible to get achievements the easy way, as you point out.
But let's assume 1 and 3 wouldn't be possible.
In one version it was possible to exploit rounding effects. By ordering something and revoking that order it was possible to gain money and manpower. Totally meaningless in a single case. But some people used an auto-clicker to sum up this small effects to start their games with a million ducats and manpower.
My point is: Even with more rigid Ironman rules, dishonest achievements are possible.
 
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I really like ironman. When I'm not falling into the trap of savescumming, it forces me to accept my mistakes and not play a perfectionist game, which I think is ultimately more fun and better from an RP perspective. I don't care at all whether achievements are tied to ironman or not though.
 
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As far as I'm concerned, the biggest problem is not mods but console commands. I would vote against allowing gameplay-changing mods for achievements, but I can imagine a case for letting players who spent time supercharging their faction of the day using mods get their Steam badges. On the other hand, they would be *completely* pointless if typing 'annex_TAG' was a legitimate way to obtain them.
By that logic, they're already completely pointless. There are and were many ways to cheat the game on the same scale of console commands (including literally using console commands in achevo enabled ironman) or even more powerful than any one console command (see save editing).
 
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Is it not possible people save-scum/use the console less because of Ironman? Do you not feel a little more guilty when you load up France_Backup_Backup_Backup_Backup? ;) It does nudge me a bit towards playing the game in more of a “roll with the punches” kind of way.

Well if your 666 ruler dies aged 20 or you get a stab hit whilst coring before you are big stuff like that. Or after disinheriting 4 or so usless duded you still only get a 002 with a 456 and 346 parents stuff like that not big ones like loosing a war.
 
Idk, even though you can savescum I still find playing Ironman discourages me from it. A lot of the time instead of making a hard save before a big decision, already being in Ironman makes me think "just go for it. Deal with the consequences, like rulers in real life did." Sometimes I do make a hard save, and even if things go wrong, I still don't reload.

I don't know, I feel just with Ironman being what it is, it pushes you into the mentality of thinking before you act and sucking up your losses. Even if you can still easily savescum. Oddly enough, EU4 is the only Paradox game where I feel so aggrieved over losses. Like in CK if I'm some King with a nice realm and out of nowhere I get huge rebellions and foreign invasions and I'm suddenly reduced to a lowly 1 province count I'm just like "lol cool, new adventures I guess". Same with HoI, if I lose I just don't care. But man, losing an important war in EU4 hurts. It makes me feel stressed out, anxious. It makes me want to ragequit. It's heartbreaking to see your nation castrated, shrank and humiliated. But in the end, that's what's so good about it.

The highs and the lows. The good times and the bad times with your nation. The heroic victories, the crushing defeats, the unexpected glories, the bittersweet revenge, the incredulity as your nation goes from the most powerful nation in Europe to -3 stability, invaded by the Ottomans, a HRE coalition, vassals declaring independence, 50k rebel stacks, excommunicated by the Pope and the utter destruction of your nation all because you had an heir with an average claim which tanked your Legitimacy, which in turn triggered all sorts of rebellions, alliance breaking and foreign invasions. Yes this happened to me. It was a bummer but at the same time I couldn't help but marvel at what a beautiful catastrophe it was. It was one of the most confident and successful Burgundy games I'd had until one moment triggered a huge chain of negative events that absolutely wrecked me.

My last hard save had been 30 years ago (was on a binge). Even though I stopped playing that campaign, I am glad that that disaster happened to me instead of having just reloaded all the time and becoming no.1 great power by 1550.

Yeah, you can savescum when doing Ironman, but so what? There are a lot of people who don't feel the need to savescum at every opportunity, who don't play for minmaxing and optimal gameplay each time, and are just grateful to have the opportunity to savescum in case a really stupid misclick or something happens.

I am glad both Ironman and non-Ironman exist. I see no reason to abolish it.
 
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PDS games all have some stinker achievements of their own. Way too many are based on puns or memes rather than what makes for good gameplay experiences. Many have descriptions that are misleading or outright wrong (e.g. Balkan Powder Keg in HoI4, Sakoku Law in EU4). Others still are essentially just RNG-checks either from the starting position (e.g. Russian minors) or, worse, from the mechanics of the achievements themselves (e.g. Pheasant Strut in EU4, Galatron in Stellaris, Getting the Band Back Together in HoI4).

Oh yes, definitely.
 
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By that logic, they're already completely pointless. There are and were many ways to cheat the game on the same scale of console commands (including literally using console commands in achevo enabled ironman) or even more powerful than any one console command (see save editing).
Someone can dissassemble a Rubik's cube and put individual squares in the correct place. That doesn't mean playing Rubik's cube is pointless. On the other hand, it *would* be pointless if you had a big button on the cube that automatically does the moves for you.
 
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I really endorse the Ironman mechanic.


The game is actively designed and telling you to not to savescum. Of course, savescumming can be a fun method for whoever wants it to be, but there is somehow a standard design in this game by which they encourage you to make mistakes, and to live up to them.

I understand how frustrating this is when the goal is something like world conquest or one faith, but the point in the game is that it is a soft politic, diplomatic, historic and war simulator, on which designers thought the most entertaining situations would not be those on which you win and stomp your rivals without effort, but those on which you have to face new circunstances, uncertainties, and RNGs which never, never, allow you to be in full control of your game. At most, you can curve this randomness in your favour, but you can never dominate it.

I still see in the forum people who complaint about how disasters work, how unfair they are, or about other destabilizing mechanics. But the game is about that. Prepared players will be in a better position to fend of a bankrupcy, or a coallition, or two disasters happening at the same time, but they won't be able to avoid it altogether.

I think that even Ironman could be taken a step further, because we already have a lot of data which we are using to improve our chances in the game. When I started playing it I had no idea that some predeterminate events would be triggering almost 100% every game if one or two easy conditions were met (i.e Iberian wedding, or Polish getting Lituanian jagellion). Knowledge of those events give a huge advantage already in this sort of game, because we can taylor and adapt the playstyle to them (in the given example, we can chill very much with Aragon as Castile, and even give them more war spoils than we would, knowing that later we are gonna incorporate all their territory). Also the fact we know all the incoming institutions, the appearance conditions and how to tinker with them, etc...

So, what I mean, is that the game already gives you many many things to work with, which are highly deterministic. Its very far from, to say, a roguelike on which every run is going to have a much higher amount of RNG and luck involved. For me, asking Ironman to be put down, and to identify savescumming as the standard way the game is to be played, undermines it, in the way that takes away a lot of the potential fun we can have on it. It is fun to try your way without a safety net underneath you, and to keep to that plan even if things go wrong, or actually change it according to the circunstances. It is interesting to see variations on how other countries are developing, expanding, or carrying their diplomacy, and it is interesting to think how you can fit in there.

Besides that, I really appreciate to see the achievements linked to Ironman, because then I know they have been achieved with a difficulty level which makes them relevant. Also it gives information about the type of player you are looking at. Someone with many hours and no achievements will be identified as a player who values certainty, determined outcomes given same inputs, and who thinks of EU4 not as a playground on which to experiment and see where things go, but as a ground they want to control to the last detail. I don't oppose that playstyle, its just not for me.


bye
 
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There should be an achievement for "Started a flame thread in the forums about achievements and ironman".

Then these people could finally get a badge. No ironman needed.
 
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I like ironman, and for some of the reasons mentioned in a number of posts above. First and foremost, EU IV is a much better experience for me if I must live with each decision and event, good or bad. Without this it would be far too tempting to take a mulligan when my awesome heir dies hunting boar, or the RNG gives my PU target an heir two days before the old man kicks the bucket. This is purely a personal thing, and tied to my own shameful lack of self control. But I recall how I would manipulate the governor traits in TW Med 2 Stainless Steel. A leacherous, hunchback, craven adulterer with a lisp wouldn't always do as a field general so perhaps i can do something about that, and I often did. But this detracts from the experience, and it's often when things go the worst that the experience is the most memorable. That, and the fact that EU IV runs go much faster since I am just taking it on the chin as it were.

Any performance hit from autosaves is a non-issue for me, maybe it takes two seconds. I understand if it has more impact for others, but for me this isn't a concern at all.

I don't care about achievements, except in EU IV! Not only do achievements cause me to play nations I never would have, or pursue goals or paths I probably wouldn't have thought of, I feel like many are very challenging and exclusive. All of my rarest ones on Steam are from EU IV. I have over 2,000 Steam achievements in various games, but the top-ten rarest are all from EU IV, with the one at the top of that list being done by just .5% of players. This is appealing on a personal level and I couldn't care less if others agree or disagree, no offense intended. It's to the point now that when I am deciding on which nation to play next I consult the list of achievements and make my choice based on this.

Until this thread I must admit I didn't realize that it was so easy to circumvent the ironman restriction, and knowing this is sort of like finding out your girlfriend isn't actually a virgin like she said, but I'll try to forget I know this now so it remains pure. Or something.

However, I am very anti-Lucky Nations. I do not like this mechanic and the requirement to use it. I admit the AI can use some help, and with LN on EU IV IS a more challenging game, in Europe anyway. But it is so arbitrary and artificial and I long for the day when the strongest nations become so from a combination of inherent advantages and good play, not from being propped up by the developers. Maps and runs are infinitely more interesting to me in non-ironman games, although I don't play that way myself, but friends do and when we post reports I'm always a little envious as to how cool and interesting their runs are compared to the more railroaded results in mine. EU IV still has amazing variability with LN on, but with it off it's on a different scale.

So yeah, keep ironman tied to achievements, but lose LN and make the AI better :)
 
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EU is a game that has always thrived on the strength of its modding community.

Introducing a system (via achievements requiring no-mods ironman) that actively discourages the use of that strength does not fill me with confidence about the game, or the designer's view for it.

In my case, the choice is pretty easy: I've accepted (like many other players, I suspect) that the only relevance of achievements to my life is what enjoyment I get from the pun the first time I see it. Because I'm not sacrificing modding to get even one of those.
 
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Someone can dissassemble a Rubik's cube and put individual squares in the correct place. That doesn't mean playing Rubik's cube is pointless. On the other hand, it *would* be pointless if you had a big button on the cube that automatically does the moves for you.

There already exists a button to get all of the achevos that is about as hard as starting up an ironman game in terms of number of clicks. There are many ways to get most of the achievements that are not all that difficult or time consuming (and especially not more difficult than doing it normally, given how long it takes people to do things like TTM or 1Faith). Opening a file and mass changing a few values isn't all that meaningfully different from mass annexing via console commands, yet one is tacitly allowed and the other isn't.

There's a reason that no one takes Rubik's cube records seriously unless the entire thing is recorded and watched live (and often not even then). Unless you seriously think someone can disassemble and reassemble a rubik's cube in less than 3.47 seconds, this analogy is complete non-sense to the point you or I were making. Ironman is no where near secure enough to make this comparison.
 
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You can be proud of your own deeds without spoiling others their games.

Sounds like more of an argument against your post than for it to be honest.

Anyways, making savescumming inconvenient is enough; few people will bother to do what you wrote.
 
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made some mistakes not that devastating
ironman : try harder, recover and bite back
not ironman: reload immediately

planning something risky
ironman : focused, doubting, sometimes changed plan
not ironman: save in advance, do everything bold, just another day in the office

ironman is not for achievements, it's personal. people just need an reason not to savescum, self-descipline is harder than imagine, and ironman helps it
 
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Yes. I mean it. I think Ironman mode is a bad idea. Look, I do not want people gaming achievements as much as you do. But there a several reasons Ironman mode is useless to make that happen. Here are my reasons why:
1. Save scumming: Ironman does not allow save scumming. You have one save and one save only. Except you can do that very easily. All you need to do is copy an ironman save game before doing a bad decision and if you don't like it, you can paste it back. you can even save several saves in a special folder and just use the ones with the best RNG or the best results. Anyone can save scum in ironman. It is not hard, just a little inconvenient. But if people want to, they can. this does not disable achievements.
2. Autosaves: Autosaves kill performance. This is not to be argued. Many people have problems with that. If I skip a decade in EU4 in ironman mode, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the time is waiting for autosaves to be completed.
3. Console: The console cannot be used in ironman, except that it can. You can even google it. There are several videos on the topic. So ironman is again only an inconvenience.
4. Elitists are not chad: being elitist is virgin, not chad. You can be proud of your own deeds without spoiling others their games.
5. EU4 is stilled bugged and ironman can go gamebreaking: yes, but mostly other titles like HOI4 and Imperator.

After all that: I ask you: What benefits does ironman mode provide for anyone?
Stupid argument. 12 y/o argument. Nothing constructive.
 
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