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STGeorge

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IRA = gangsters & murderers! freedom fighter my arse.......low life scum who dont even deserve to be mentioned here.

"WAR on Terrorism" I want to know when the USA & world are going to war against the IRA, destroy their training camps, seize their funds and in prison their agents!!!!
 

Smirfy

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Re: The IRA in the North

Originally posted by ComteDeMeighan
The IRA didn't function in the North at all during World War II


EXECUTED
Tom Williams and the IRA

by

Jim McVeigh

Tom Williams who was one of six IRA volunteers
sentenced to death by hanging in 1942. A group
of eight, including two women, had mounted a
diversionary operation to take attention away from
three Republican parades held in Belfast to
celebrate the 1916 Easter Rising. All such parades
had been banned under the Stormont regime since
the partition of Ireland and the introduction of the
Civil Authorities (Special Powers) Act of 1922.
A police patrol managed to capture the group but
not before an exchange of shots which resulted in
the death of RUC constable Patrick Murphy.
Although only 18 years old, Tom Williams was in
charge of the unit and in a controversial statement to
the police he assumed full responsibility for the
shooting.

Following a remarkable international reprieve
campaign, the colonial Governor of Northern Ireland
commuted five of the six death sentences to terms of
penal servitude. But the British had decided that
Tom Williams should hang.

Although Tom Williams is remembered in song, an
exhibition, and a recent play, his story has never
before appeared in print. Jim McVeigh, himself a
Republican prisoner, has pieced together a revealing
account of the fateful operation and its aftermath.
He has been ably assisted by leading Republican
Joe Cahill, one of those sentenced to death with
Tom Williams.


The IRA was a functioning orginization during WWII.
If You drive into Belfast via the Falls road you will find a mural dedicated to Tom Williams. So the IRA themselves make no secret that they were an operational force during WWII. These operations were not in support of the Allies but their Axis allies.
 
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Smirfy

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A source You can check

Originally posted by ComteDeMeighan
I think this is someones fantasy I have never heard of this anyways it would violate the Government of Ireland Act Britain would not give up Northern Ireland like that.


From Churchills six volumes on WWII

Volume III Page 539


"This done my thought turned at once to what has always lain near to my heart. to Mr de Valera I sent the following message:


8th December 1941

Now is your chance. Now or never! A nation once again! I will meet you wherever you wish."


I don't know what in your small mind that would mean but it sounds to me like on the 8th of December 1941 Churchill offered de Valera a united Ireland But as stated before de Valera's high moral motive for turning this down when the whole of Europe was under Nazi oppression and the battle of the Atlantic had not reached it's peak let alone been won was the fact with the addition of northern voters he would never have been elected again. His sole further contribution to the war was putting on a morning suit and paying his respects to the late Adolf Hitler in 1945 at the German embassy. As stated before Eamon de Valera when the time came for decision he was found morally wanting thank God so many of his countrymen were not and fought for the freedom of Europe.
 
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ComteDeMeighan

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The Battle of the Atlantic

Dude the Battle of the Atlantic was never ever a factor in the war this is pure mythology please read Clay Blair's history of the Uboat war it argues quite truly that the production of the USA and Britain in merchant ships made the Uboats a basic non-entity they could have never choked Britain.......Of course Churchill had some quotes about the battle of the Atlantic scaring him but its a joke U-boat construction could not keep up with Allied production.......


**************************************************
 

unmerged(6757)

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Re: A source You can check

Originally posted by Smirfy

I don't know what in your small mind that would

Sorry to intrude on your debate here people. But I would just like to say please refrain from insults at each other. I know Comte and he does not have a small mind. Sure sometimes it may be foggy with beer:D But I insure you he is quite educated. Ok carry on with your debate sorry again for the intrusion.

Also:

YEAH COMTE!!!
 

ComteDeMeighan

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A Nation once again?

Thats a very ambiguous quote man Churchill could not reunite Ireland I don't think anybody can...........
 

Smirfy

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Sorry to intrude on your debate here people. But I would just like to say please refrain from insults at each other. I know Comte and he does not have a small mind. Sure sometimes it may be foggy with beer But I insure you he is quite educated. Ok carry on with your debate sorry again for the intrusion.

Also:

YEAH COMTE!!!


__________________

When I get accused of reciting history as some sort of "Orangemans mytholgy" I do take offense as I, nor any member of my extended family have been in the orange order. I look on history with an objective mind that's why I have no interest in insular Irish politics North or South of border. Especially not the type that thinks not helping the allies during WWII was a great feat of diplomacy. You guys must be American so if Britain was to stay neutral in the coming war against Iraq would that be a great feat of diplomacy? It would not matter maybe your great allies in southern Ireland will support you.


:D
 

Smirfy

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Re: The Battle of the Atlantic

Originally posted by ComteDeMeighan
Dude the Battle of the Atlantic was never ever a factor in the war this is pure mythology please read Clay Blair's history of the Uboat war it argues quite truly that the production of the USA and Britain in merchant ships made the Uboats a basic non-entity they could have never choked Britain.......Of course Churchill had some quotes about the battle of the Atlantic scaring him but its a joke U-boat construction could not keep up with Allied production.......


**************************************************

Again I suggest you explain this to some retired merchant seamen and tell the good people of Britain why they had to endure rationing. By late 43 the battle of the Atlantic had swung in favour of the allies when your production quotas etc kicked in, Until then the battle of the Atlantic was paid for with the lives of many brave men (volunteers) who the future promise of American production did not relieve the immediacy of danger(no thanks to de Valera). I for one will never belittle their efforts with statistics because until late 1943 the only statistic they had to look forward to was the likely possibility of getting sunk.
 
Last edited:

hinkar

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Re: Extract from Churchills victory speech

Originally posted by Smirfy
The sense of envelopment, which might at any moment turn to strangulation ... to frolic with the Germans and later with the Japanese representatives to their hearts content.

Well, Churchill's victory speech and many of his quotes and extracts of his History of WWII are included so it's only right that De Valera gets a quote.
This is an extract from a speech he made on May 16th 1945 in reply to Churchill's victory speech:

"That Mr. Churchill should be irritated when our neutrality stood in the way of what he thought he vitally needed, I understand, but that he or any thinking person in Britain or elsewhere should fail to see the reason for our neutrality, I find it hard to conceive.

I would like to put a hypothetical question-it is a question I have put to many Englishmen since the last war. Suppose Germany had won the war, had invaded and occupied England, and that after a long lapse of time and many bitter struggles, she was finally brought to acquiesce in admitting England's right to freedom, and let England go, but not the whole of England, all but, let us say, the six southern counties.

These six southern counties, those, let us suppose, commanding the entrance to the narrow seas, Germany had singled out and insisted on holding herself with a view to weakening England as a whole, and maintaining the securing of her own communications through the Straits of Dover.

Let us suppose further, that after all this had happened, Germany was engaged in a great war in which she could show that she was on the side of freedom of a number of small nations, would Mr. Churchill as an Englishman who believed that his own nation had as good a right to freedom as any other, not freedom for a part merely, but freedom for the whole-would he, whilst Germany still maintained the partition of his country and occupied six counties of it, would he lead this partitioned England to join with Germany in a crusade? I do not think Mr. Churchill would.

Would he think the people of partitioned England an object of shame if they stood neutral in such circumstances? I do not think Mr. Churchill would.

Mr. Churchill is proud of Britain's stand alone, after France had fallen and before America entered the War.

Could he not find in his heart the generosity to acknowledge that there is a small nation that stood alone not for one year or two, but for several hundred years against aggression; that endured spoliation's, famines, massacres in endless succession; that was clubbed many times into insensibility, but that each time on returning consciousness took up the fight anew; a small nation that could never be got to accept defeat and has never surrendered her soul?

Mr. Churchill is justly proud of his nation's perseverance against heavy odds. But we in this island are still prouder of our people's perseverance for freedom through all the centuries. We, of our time, have played our part in the perseverance, and we have pledged our selves to the dead generations who have preserved intact for us this glorious heritage, that we, too, will strive to be faithful to the end, and pass on this tradition unblemished."

A snipit of Dev's life: De Valera fought for Irish indepence in the Easter 1916 rising. He was captured and sentenced to death (but was saved by his US citizenship) but ended up in prison in England. All the other leaders were executed (the people of Dublin especially appreciated the treatment of James Connolly who was wounded so General Maxwell had him tied him to a chair and shot).
How can anyone be surprised that he didn't believe Churchill's offer of a united Ireland after the war?
How can anyone be surprised that he was unwilling to risk the destruction of his country for Great Britain?
 

Smirfy

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I do not intend to get into the discussion on irish history as everyone I have ever met, or read from Ireland has a very selective (none more so than de Valera) version and it bores me intensely. If You feel that De Valeras position is morally justifiable fine (does he mention his visit to the german embassy to pay his respects to the late herr hitler in that speech). I myself am an Irishman (the cross of St Patrick is on the Union Flag) and don't. I am proud that all my imediate family uncles etc served in wwii for the over throw of Nazi tyrany (they volunteered no conscription in Northern Ireland and for the substantial numbers from the south who also volunteered for service against the Nazi's i am to eternally grateful. If you take the irish republican version of history at face value i am truly sorry for the memory of all the fallen liberating Europe for their sacrifice is truly in vain if this is how they will be remembered they should have stayed safely at home with their families and not gave up all their tomorrows for your today.
 

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Re: Fuck off!

Originally posted by ComteDeMeighan
Smirfy take your bigamist Orange man perspective and go Fuck yourself you ASS your country sucks and so do you Up the RA DEEK!

Wow. Way to fly off the handle for no reason. Hopefully you'll be banned for that unprovoked attack and no one else will have to read your childish insults.
P.S. why do you say his country sucks? Arent you both Irish?
 

Smirfy

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Re: Fuck off!

Originally posted by ComteDeMeighan
Smirfy take your bigamist Orange man perspective and go Fuck yourself you ASS your country sucks and so do you Up the RA DEEK!

Very Inteligent arguement you are putting forward there. As stated before i am an Irishman, I am not in the orange order. I know you do not like the FACT that tens of thousands of OUR countrymen VOLUNTEERED to fight the Nazi's (and should be honoured for doing so) as it does not sit comfortably with Irish republican mytholgy. But there is no further need to discuss further as your support for atrocities like Omagh Enniskillen (Where the victims were paying their respects to the fallen of world wars) and the Shankill bombing show that there is no chance of reasoned discussion. Maybe paradox will make an military politically narrow minded simulation for you to play. until then comte all the best.

BTW i am descended from the United Irishmen who fought the 1798 rebellion against the British and were the founders of irish republicanism Wolfe Tone, Henry Joy McCracken etc. I am proud of that, pity the modern version of Irish Republicanism and their followers bear no relation to the ideals of their founders.

I waive any right to have comte banned as I have to put up with insular and bigoted view points from both sides of the secterian devide daily and it although sad is water of a ducks back.
 
Last edited:
Jul 18, 2001
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Re: [deleted]

ComteDeMeighan may want to take the opportunity to use the excellent 'edit' feature that is included in this bulletin board to reword some of his earlier comments. *Everyone* contributing to this thread may want to remind themselves that deliberately inflammatory, ad hominem postings have no place in a grown-up forum.

Failing that, the moderators may be advised to close down this thread entirely.
 

Smirfy

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Re: Re: [deleted]

Originally posted by Keplerus
ComteDeMeighan may want to take the opportunity to use the excellent 'edit' feature that is included in this bulletin board to reword some of his earlier comments. *Everyone* contributing to this thread may want to remind themselves that deliberately inflammatory, ad hominem postings have no place in a grown-up forum.

Failing that, the moderators may be advised to close down this thread entirely.

Sorry if I'm out of order maybe my posts have been subjective to my view point and put in a forceful manner at times inflamed opinion. But us Irish are a mouthy race especialy us northerners, in defense of comte I've heard worse at "Old Firm" games :D! Though many browsers of this forum would be unfimiliar with the charm of these events. In my defence I should know better than enter into a discussion about Ireland. (though my main point is just about Dev) History is my interest thats why I generally stay clear of Ireland as stated before everyone tends to have a selective point of view on Ireland. If you explain where I have made a Bigoted statement that offends you I will gladly edit it out and apologise.
I hope on reflection you can deem to modify your statement. Think if some mindless half-wit made a statement championing Loyalist paramilitaries you myself and others would be offended.

Nothing Personal
Smirfy
 
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Petrarca

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Re: The Battle of the Atlantic

Originally posted by ComteDeMeighan
Dude the Battle of the Atlantic was never ever a factor in the war this is pure mythology please read Clay Blair's history of the Uboat war it argues quite truly that the production of the USA and Britain in merchant ships made the Uboats a basic non-entity they could have never choked Britain.......Of course Churchill had some quotes about the battle of the Atlantic scaring him but its a joke U-boat construction could not keep up with Allied production.......


**************************************************
The general analysis (by many, including Keegan) of the Atlantic warfare is that if each German sub sank one more merchant vessel, England would begin to starve.
 

Smirfy

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deeply disappointed

Originally posted by ComteDeMeighan
Smirfy take your bigamist Orange man perspective and go Fuck yourself you ASS your country sucks and so do you Up the RA DEEK!

I am saddened more that annoyed that a party has not taken the 24 hour period to moderate his statement. I can only imagine the out cry if he said up Al - Qaeda is their terrorism any different from that of the IRA? As I stated before I've heard worse before and am used to it though I feel when you have lost an arguement it is childish to resort to such statements. Northern Ireland is not the best place in the world to live in (mainly due to paramilitaries) We are part of the United Kingdom because the vast majority of people living here wish to remain so and there is no political dynamic in southern Ireland for northern Ireland to join with them.
 

The Witch-King

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History is politics.

We are here dealing with fairly recent history (remember, the war ended just 57 years ago).
We are also discussing the history of events that involved a number of people in a number of countries brutally and cold-bloodedly murdering and/or oppressing lots of other people.

It is thus inevitable that a world war II forum in part turns into a forum for heated political discussion.
Some topics have been forbidden to prevent this, but the vanity of that is evident in the feelings that emanate between people on all kinds of different fronts here.

Just an observation.
 

King

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Well to bring this discussion back in track. As part of Chamberlian's appeasment policy he mended fences with the Republic. In 1936 Anglo-Irish relations were rock bottom and there was a bit of a trade war going on. Chamberlian signed a new commertail treaty to solve the trade problem and handed back the treaty ports to help with relations. This defused the major bone of contention in Anglo-Irish relations and gave the republic absolutly no insentive to go to war with Britain. Although once the U-boat war kicked off some regretted that deicision.

Mr de Valera for his part did everything to keep the Free State out the war including interning IRA men to give Britain no excuse to laurnch an occupation. THe stance of the Irish government was quite simple pro-Allied Neutrality which the people of the Free State were very happy with. So much so that this could be used to describe Irish foreign policy to this day.