Thank you for stating i was right
(well, i suppose the fact in Ireland existed Viking settlements means i were right when i said 'just the opposite', which translates into 'the irish were raided, not raiders')-
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(well, i suppose the fact in Ireland existed Viking settlements means i were right when i said 'just the opposite', which translates into 'the irish were raided, not raiders')
In HOI, the Irish could secretly get supplies from the Germans, and try to act friendly to the Allies, then, when Operation Sea Lion is carried out, Irish forces could attack Britain too!
Or Liechtienstein or Vatican!
Or Liechtienstein or Vatican!
Originally posted by DarthMaur
Thank you for stating i was right
Well we have more in common than i thought
Re: Well No
If you live near the docks go down to a retired merchant seamans club and tell those boys what a difficult neutrality Eire had.
If you live near the docks go down to a retired merchant seamans club and tell those boys what a difficult neutrality Eire had.
Wasn't the IRA a marxist organisation? I doubt they would join the evil fascists if they were.
Re: Well No
I don't dispute that, but the thing is that you can't help but notice
that the IRA did not need to be "parachuted" in to Ireland.
I don't dispute that, but the thing is that you can't help but notice
that the IRA did not need to be "parachuted" in to Ireland.
"Englands peril is our opportunity" would be the thinking of the IRA it was more a patriot orginization then it became marxist much later
Yup, a common mistake. Most of so-called marxist organisations were primairly nationalists, and whether they would end left or right would be determined on which side they would end (west or east).
For example, Ho Chi Min and Vietnamese insurgents weren't communist at all, at first, they were just nationalist
Well, at least in European colonies.
For example, Ho Chi Min and Vietnamese insurgents weren't communist at all, at first, they were just nationalist
Well, at least in European colonies.
Re: Re: Well No
Whatever sins may have been committed by the wartime de Valera government, being friendly to the IRA was not one of them. Indeed, his suppression of the Republicans was so complete that they had essentially ceased to function as a viable organization in the Free State by the end of WWII.
Whatever sins may have been committed by the wartime de Valera government, being friendly to the IRA was not one of them. Indeed, his suppression of the Republicans was so complete that they had essentially ceased to function as a viable organization in the Free State by the end of WWII.
Re: Re: Re: Well No
Where have I stated that de Valera was soft on the IRA!
But again in case you may not have noticed Northern Ireland was not in de Valera's control!
Where have I stated that de Valera was soft on the IRA!
But again in case you may not have noticed Northern Ireland was not in de Valera's control!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Well No
Alright, calm down.
The point, then, is that Eire's neutrality and the IRA's behavior north of the border are two entirely separate issues. Agreed?
Alright, calm down.
The point, then, is that Eire's neutrality and the IRA's behavior north of the border are two entirely separate issues. Agreed?
The IRA in the North
The IRA didn't function in the North at all during World War II and that other guy is right De Valera was no friend of the IRA when Fianna Fail took power. Remember the IRA of today is totally different than the IRA of the 30's and 40's...... The IRA did not help the Nazi's in Northern Ireland I know this is like beating a dead horse but I don't understand where you get this idea is this some "Orangeman" mythology? After 1941 only one German Agent got in touch with republican circles and he got caught this was after he escaped from Mount Joy prison in Dublin on the 28 February 1942 Gunther Schuetz was his name he got arrested again in March and didn't send any information to Germany he was using the Republicans to try and escape back to Germany....The IRA was not strong during this period at all they were being jailed on both sides of the border by the RUC and the Gardai at an alarming rate. The Modern IRA was reborn during the 50's and the 60's.........
The IRA didn't function in the North at all during World War II and that other guy is right De Valera was no friend of the IRA when Fianna Fail took power. Remember the IRA of today is totally different than the IRA of the 30's and 40's...... The IRA did not help the Nazi's in Northern Ireland I know this is like beating a dead horse but I don't understand where you get this idea is this some "Orangeman" mythology? After 1941 only one German Agent got in touch with republican circles and he got caught this was after he escaped from Mount Joy prison in Dublin on the 28 February 1942 Gunther Schuetz was his name he got arrested again in March and didn't send any information to Germany he was using the Republicans to try and escape back to Germany....The IRA was not strong during this period at all they were being jailed on both sides of the border by the RUC and the Gardai at an alarming rate. The Modern IRA was reborn during the 50's and the 60's.........
Someone on this thread suggested that Britain offered to essentially give Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic in return for joining the allies. I've never heard this, and am somewhat sceptical. Can anyone give a citation for this?
I agree
I think this is someones fantasy I have never heard of this anyways it would violate the Government of Ireland Act Britain would not give up Northern Ireland like that.
I think this is someones fantasy I have never heard of this anyways it would violate the Government of Ireland Act Britain would not give up Northern Ireland like that.
Germany and the IRA
Especially in the early months of the war the IRA had been the most important ally for the Germans. Abwehr II, the German intelligence agency under Erwin von Lahousen, had, against orders from the Foreign Ministry, taken up connections with the IRA after the beginning of its bombing campaign against Britain in January 1939. The Abwehr wanted to send agents to Ireland to strengthen relations with the IRA, many of whose leaders were, after de Valera's raids earlier in 1939, imprisoned. "The agents were to approach the IRA on the basis of Germany's desire to see Ireland united and persuade the organisation to abandon political activities in favour of military action."
Hempel was concerned about the effects the German intelligence activities in the country could have on diplomatic relations, but the Abwehr did not listen to him. He warned that the IRA was not strong enough for any action with a promise of success. After the raid on the Irish army magazine in Phoenix Park, Dublin, on 24 December 1939, the Dail decided to set up detention camps for the IRA. Shortly afterwards most of the leading circle of the IRA were imprisoned during a raid by the Special Branch. An attempt to strengthen the IRA again was the German plan to return the IRA leaders Sean Russell and Frank Ryan, who had been political opponents, to Ireland. At the time of the raid in January 1940, Russell had been on a campaign to raise money in the United States of America, and now he asked the Abwehr to help him return to Ireland, an appeal that delighted the German intelligence, providing it with yet another access to the IRA. The Abwehr managed to get Russell out of the USA and a plan was made for him to return to Ireland, called 'Operation Dove'. After his return on a U-boat the IRA leader would be given free hand in his actions, and he would figure out if joint activities with the Germans were possible. But the whole operation ended tragically, as Russell died on the voyage to Ireland, just in sight of his destination, without telling Ryan about his plans. Ryan therefore decided to return to Germany, where he eventually died in 1944
Especially in the early months of the war the IRA had been the most important ally for the Germans. Abwehr II, the German intelligence agency under Erwin von Lahousen, had, against orders from the Foreign Ministry, taken up connections with the IRA after the beginning of its bombing campaign against Britain in January 1939. The Abwehr wanted to send agents to Ireland to strengthen relations with the IRA, many of whose leaders were, after de Valera's raids earlier in 1939, imprisoned. "The agents were to approach the IRA on the basis of Germany's desire to see Ireland united and persuade the organisation to abandon political activities in favour of military action."
Hempel was concerned about the effects the German intelligence activities in the country could have on diplomatic relations, but the Abwehr did not listen to him. He warned that the IRA was not strong enough for any action with a promise of success. After the raid on the Irish army magazine in Phoenix Park, Dublin, on 24 December 1939, the Dail decided to set up detention camps for the IRA. Shortly afterwards most of the leading circle of the IRA were imprisoned during a raid by the Special Branch. An attempt to strengthen the IRA again was the German plan to return the IRA leaders Sean Russell and Frank Ryan, who had been political opponents, to Ireland. At the time of the raid in January 1940, Russell had been on a campaign to raise money in the United States of America, and now he asked the Abwehr to help him return to Ireland, an appeal that delighted the German intelligence, providing it with yet another access to the IRA. The Abwehr managed to get Russell out of the USA and a plan was made for him to return to Ireland, called 'Operation Dove'. After his return on a U-boat the IRA leader would be given free hand in his actions, and he would figure out if joint activities with the Germans were possible. But the whole operation ended tragically, as Russell died on the voyage to Ireland, just in sight of his destination, without telling Ryan about his plans. Ryan therefore decided to return to Germany, where he eventually died in 1944
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Extract from Churchills victory speech
The sense of envelopment, which might at any moment turn to strangulation, lay heavy upon us. We had only the Northwestern approach between Ulster and Scotland through which to bring in the means of life and to send out the forces of war. Owing to the action of Mr de Valera, so much at variance with the temper and instinct of thousands of Southern Irishmen who hastened to the battle-front to prove their ancient valour, the approaches which the Southern lrish ports and airfields could so easily have guarded were closed by the hostile aircraft and U-boats. This was indeed a deadly moment in our life, and if it had not been for the loyalty and friendship of Northern Ireland we should have been forced to come to close quarters with Mr de Valera or perish for ever from the earth. However, with a restraint and poise to which, I say, history will find few parallels, His Majesty's Government never laid a violent hand upon them though at times it would have been quite easy and quite natural, and we left the de Valera Government to frolic with the Germans and later with the Japanese representatives to their hearts content.
The sense of envelopment, which might at any moment turn to strangulation, lay heavy upon us. We had only the Northwestern approach between Ulster and Scotland through which to bring in the means of life and to send out the forces of war. Owing to the action of Mr de Valera, so much at variance with the temper and instinct of thousands of Southern Irishmen who hastened to the battle-front to prove their ancient valour, the approaches which the Southern lrish ports and airfields could so easily have guarded were closed by the hostile aircraft and U-boats. This was indeed a deadly moment in our life, and if it had not been for the loyalty and friendship of Northern Ireland we should have been forced to come to close quarters with Mr de Valera or perish for ever from the earth. However, with a restraint and poise to which, I say, history will find few parallels, His Majesty's Government never laid a violent hand upon them though at times it would have been quite easy and quite natural, and we left the de Valera Government to frolic with the Germans and later with the Japanese representatives to their hearts content.
It's real; It's mentioned, for example, in Tim Pat Coogan's biography of De Valera (p. 551-554).
However, one shouldn't read too much into this; the devil is in the details. Churchill's offer was "that there should be a declaration of a United Ireland in principle, the constitutional and practical details of the Union to be worked out in due course ..." in return for the Free State's entry into the war. De Valera suspected that this was an empty promise, made at a moment of desperation, that Churchill would not honor in the post-war negotiations; the two sides traded counter-offers for a while, but nothing came of it in the end. There was probably too much mutual hostility to make any workable agreement at the time.
In December 1940 Churchill considered the question of Ireland.
'As November and December drew on, the entrances and estuaries of the Mersey and the Clyde far surpassed in mortal significance all other factors in the war. We could of course at this time have descended upon de Valera's Ireland and regained the southern ports by force of modern arms. I had always declared that nothing but self-preservation would lead me to this. But perhaps the case of self-preservation might come. Then so be it'
The second world war, Volume II, Page 530
In fact the only action which Churchill took was to stop subsidies
Prime Minister to the Chancellor of the Exchequer 01/12/1940
'The straits to which we are being reduced by Irish action compel a reconsideration of the subsidies to Ireland. It can hardly be argued that we can go on paying them till our last gasp. Surely we ought to use this money to build more ships or buy more from the United States in view of the heavy sinkings.
Pray let me know how these subsidies could be terminated, and what retaliatory measures could be taken in the financial sphere by the Irish, observing that we are not afraid of their cutting off our food, as it would save us the enormous mass of fertilisers and feeding-stuffs we have to carry into Ireland through the de Valera-aided German blockade.'
The second world war, Volume II, Page 534
Note that when Churchill uses the term de Valera-aided, he is only referring to the fact that the Irish are aiding the German blockade by not allowing British ships and planes to base in southern Ireland.
In all of this Churchill kept the American President informed.
Former Naval Person to President Roosevelt 13/12/1940
'In the meanwhile we are so hard pressed at sea that we cannot undertake to carry any longer the 400,000 tons of feeding-stuff and fertilisers which we have hitherto convoyed to Eire through all the attacks of the enemy. We need this tonnage for our own supply, and we do not need the food which Eire has been sending us. We must now concentrate on essentials, and the Cabinet proposes to let de Valera know that we cannot go on supplying him under present conditions. he will of course have plenty of food for his people, but they will not have the prosperous trading they are making now. I am sorry about this, but we must think of our own self-preservation, and use for vital purposes our own tonnage brought in through so many perils. Perhaps this may loosen things up and make him more ready to consider common interests. I should like to know quite privately what your reactions would be if and when we are forced to concentrate our own tonnage upon the supply of Great Britain. We also do not feel able in present circumstances to continue the heavy subsidies we have hitherto been paying to the Irish agricultural producers. You will realise also that our merchant seamen, as well as public opinion generally, take it much amiss that we should have to carry Irish supplies through air and U-boat attacks and subsidise them handsomely when de Valera is quite content to sit happy and see us strangled.'
The second world war, volume II, Page 535
'As November and December drew on, the entrances and estuaries of the Mersey and the Clyde far surpassed in mortal significance all other factors in the war. We could of course at this time have descended upon de Valera's Ireland and regained the southern ports by force of modern arms. I had always declared that nothing but self-preservation would lead me to this. But perhaps the case of self-preservation might come. Then so be it'
The second world war, Volume II, Page 530
In fact the only action which Churchill took was to stop subsidies
Prime Minister to the Chancellor of the Exchequer 01/12/1940
'The straits to which we are being reduced by Irish action compel a reconsideration of the subsidies to Ireland. It can hardly be argued that we can go on paying them till our last gasp. Surely we ought to use this money to build more ships or buy more from the United States in view of the heavy sinkings.
Pray let me know how these subsidies could be terminated, and what retaliatory measures could be taken in the financial sphere by the Irish, observing that we are not afraid of their cutting off our food, as it would save us the enormous mass of fertilisers and feeding-stuffs we have to carry into Ireland through the de Valera-aided German blockade.'
The second world war, Volume II, Page 534
Note that when Churchill uses the term de Valera-aided, he is only referring to the fact that the Irish are aiding the German blockade by not allowing British ships and planes to base in southern Ireland.
In all of this Churchill kept the American President informed.
Former Naval Person to President Roosevelt 13/12/1940
'In the meanwhile we are so hard pressed at sea that we cannot undertake to carry any longer the 400,000 tons of feeding-stuff and fertilisers which we have hitherto convoyed to Eire through all the attacks of the enemy. We need this tonnage for our own supply, and we do not need the food which Eire has been sending us. We must now concentrate on essentials, and the Cabinet proposes to let de Valera know that we cannot go on supplying him under present conditions. he will of course have plenty of food for his people, but they will not have the prosperous trading they are making now. I am sorry about this, but we must think of our own self-preservation, and use for vital purposes our own tonnage brought in through so many perils. Perhaps this may loosen things up and make him more ready to consider common interests. I should like to know quite privately what your reactions would be if and when we are forced to concentrate our own tonnage upon the supply of Great Britain. We also do not feel able in present circumstances to continue the heavy subsidies we have hitherto been paying to the Irish agricultural producers. You will realise also that our merchant seamen, as well as public opinion generally, take it much amiss that we should have to carry Irish supplies through air and U-boat attacks and subsidise them handsomely when de Valera is quite content to sit happy and see us strangled.'
The second world war, volume II, Page 535