Iraq and Afghanistan wars - the controlled burn theory

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

trybald

Soon...
67 Badges
Apr 14, 2008
1.176
355
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
In the last two decades we have been observing major upheavals caused by American intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq. From perspective of someone living in Europe or America, both of these wars seem like gigantic long-term failurea. USA failed to build viable states in conquered territories. Both Afghanistan and Iraq are marred by sectarian, ethnic and factional struggles and so far haven't built effective administration. Moreover, both wars played a huge role in radicalization of Islam and paved the way to the rise of ISIS and similar movements as well as of lone-wolf terrorism worldwide. Both direct and indirect causalities of these conflicts are counted in tens if not hundreds of thousands, most of them civilians.

So yes, a gigantic failure.... unless that was the goal all along. Let's think about it for a minute. American policymakers seized the opportunity given by 9/11 in order to create huge upheaval, one that was literally poised to stir up conflicts and radicalization. And then they committed resources far inadequate to deal with the effects. People have natural tendency to overemphasize many things, but let's be honest about one thing. American (and allied) presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan was far too small for effective occupation. Allies occupied Germany and Japan first with millions and then hundreds of thousands of soldiers. In Iraq, despite terrain far more favorable to insurgency, American military presence peaked for a short time at little over 160 thousand. Germany and Japan were rapidly pacified. The troop surge in Iraq was far too small and short to have a lasting effect, but still temporarily stabilized the place. Had America committed much larger force, both Iraq and Afghanistan would be a much different shape today. But why America did what it did?

Here comes the controlled burn theory. Controlled burns are a basic method of forest management. Forest fires do happen and can have pretty devastating effect. It is therefore prudent to start these fires and let them burn in a controlled manner. This prevents fuel from building up and thus prevents larger future fires that could easily run out of control. I believe that the very same principle was used in American policy in the Middle East in the past decade. Therefore the chaos that American interventions caused wasn't a product of American stupidity or incompetence. It was the deliberate result of these interventions.

Let's think about it. The collapse of USSR caused a major shakeup of geopolitics. Previously the cold war between two superpowers pinned down and paradoxically stabilized the world. It gave each state a clear place in the world - in very broad strokes everyone belonged to America's camp, USSR's camp or tried to stay away which in practice meant balancing somewhere between. The cold war conflict gave the restless youth also a viable and ready alternative to the real or perceived injustices of their own countries. That's why for example young people in Latin America were so enthusiastic about Marxism and why youth in Central Europe rejected Marxism and embraced capitalism with equal enthusiasm. Muslim and especially Arab countries were no different. The collapse of USSR briefly gave rise to expectations that the liberal-capitalist worldview will now be triumphal worldwide. In reality however, the void emptied by the fall of communism was filled in Muslim countries by radical Islam. This was already observable in 1980s when the Soviet power was waning, but came to a head in 1990s. The demographic explosion in many Muslim countries created a large generation of people who were young, impatient, restless and angry at the injustices and lack of economic opportunities in their native countries. These people were more than likely to turn to radical Islam as the only viable alternative and support revolutions that would overturn the governments in their own countries and replace them with radical Islamist governments. Unless of course something is done about it.

America's well-being largely depends on stable and friendly Middle East. Partially because of hydrocarbons are are extracted there and imported by America, but mostly because of petrodollar itself. Thanks to petrodollar, America can live beyond it means and finance social programs and defense spending it would never be able to afford otherwise. Because oil and natural gas are worldwide sold in dollars, the world buys dollars. This mean America can print and spend dollars domestically without the fear of inflation simply because large stream of dollars flows away each day never to return. The downfall of governments in oil-producing countries would not only cause the spike of oil and gas prices. That's something America can deal with quite easily. More importantly, this would cause the petrodollar system to fall. Without petrodollar, America would have to either to rise taxes or slash its spending, both will catastrophic results.

America therefore had to act to save the government in oil-producing states by dismantling the brewing radical revolution. And the best way to do it is to create a safety valve through which the excess steam would be expelled. And how to do it better than by creating something that would piss the young Muslims off? Not "nuke Mecca" kind of something, but "Muslims got invaded" kind of something. And it's best to do it in countries that do not participate in worldwide trade on large scale. Countries like... Iraq and Afghanistan.

By creating conflicts America created controlled environments to which the most radical youth could flock in order to fight and die for Islam. This thinned the herd in their home countries and decimated the ringleaders that could otherwise lead the revolution. Even more was gained when ISIS got a territory to govern. They were pretty soon exposed as murderous assholes whose methods of government was no different than that of an armed gang. Their destruction of antiquities turned away peoples like the Egyptians who value their heritage above all else. Their genocide of minorities invigorated said minorities who know they have to protect itself. And so on. From what we see, the youth in Muslim countries are turning away from ISIS and radical Islam in general. Instead, normal life is becoming a viable alternative to them.

So, was Bush right when he proclaimed "Mission accomplished"?
 

Ming

Unsolicitor General
2 Badges
Aug 15, 2002
1.431
4.202
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
That is an imaginative supposition, might be able to get a clancyesque thriller out of the premise.

It however would require Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush to be such plotters to have decided that the diplomatic costs of leading a coalition to war based on obvious lies (WMDs, links to terrorism) would be outweighed by the geopolitical benefits of short circuiting islamist revolutionaries. . .but then do nothing to facilitate 'finding' any convenient stockpiles after the invasion or damning love letters from bin laden.

Write me a script with these elements and I'd say we have a go picture.
 

trybald

Soon...
67 Badges
Apr 14, 2008
1.176
355
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
Well, you don't have to be a master plotter to execute the strategy in which America excels since the end of WW2. American responses to most crises fail short of solving the problem due to inadequacy of forces that were committed to the task. America simply assumes that destabilization rather than solving is far more beneficial to her than to her rivals. War of attrition is always in USA's favor due to USA's immense resources. America's approach is in stark contrast to what the Soviets did, that is entering with huge force in order to deal with the problem once and for all.

Moreover, as far as leaks are to be believed, America was urged to get involved in the Middle East both by Arabs and Israelis. Everyone saw the huge crisis brewing due to the enormous generation of Arabs entering adult age.
 

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
18.731
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
America simply assumes that destabilization rather than solving is far more beneficial to her than to her rivals. War of attrition is always in USA's favor due to USA's immense resources. America's approach is in stark contrast to what the Soviets did, that is entering with huge force in order to deal with the problem once and for all.
Doesn't every empire deal with peripheral conflicts that way? Look at the countries surrounding Russia and you see many of them have "frozen" conflicts with either Russia or Russian aligned factions. Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan / Armenia, it's quite a list. The Romans of old did the same once they weren't all-powerful vis-a-vis the barbarians on their frontiers any more. Same with the British, they froze or perpetuated countless conflicts among the people they ruled because that was both economical as well as advantageous. Most empires prefer to deal with conflicts that don't involve their direct interests in ways that seem inadequate to "solving" those conflicts. America is no exception.

That being said, the OP is more of a movie or book plot that a remotely likely explanation for actual historic events. ;)
 

Pyoro

Lt. General
46 Badges
May 4, 2009
1.536
5.059
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines
I don't have any hard data on it (although you can poke around for various statistics), but in my subjective perception the European/global view of the US took such an impressive nosedive under Bush I have a hard imagining them coming up with anything worse they could have done diplomatically, so even if they tried some type of conspiracy thing I'd claim it's a failure nonetheless, as the cost was - still is, perhaps - far too great.
 

keynes2.0

Field Marshal
45 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
7.861
4.281
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Pride of Nations
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
so even if they tried some type of conspiracy thing I'd claim it's a failure nonetheless, as the cost was - still is, perhaps - far too great.

Now there is a fun theory. What was their real secret agenda that failed and resulted in this plan? My money is on a secret entente with Iran and China which backfired after the Israelis invaded Lebanon.
 

Pyoro

Lt. General
46 Badges
May 4, 2009
1.536
5.059
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities: Skylines
In that case I'm more likely to believe that the Russians got Bush elected, knowing he'd sabotage the country in some way, and once they saw the direction he was taking they baited him into going for those wars - why fight the enemy if you can make them fight themselves? Perhaps they learned from the Cold War ...

Whoever planned that operation needs to win the Noble Prize for Secret Conspiracies.
 

bz249

Lt. General
29 Badges
Oct 20, 2008
1.667
216
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
I think the reality is worse than anyone can imagine... Bush & co REALLY wanted to liberate the oppressed population and plant democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just as they said. This just tell something about how many hours of analysis they invested into the topic before they ordered the invasions.
 

SeekTruthFromFx

General
59 Badges
Sep 17, 2013
1.903
2.445
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
The basic flaw with this theory is that it assumes the USA gets whatever it wants. You could say it's got the same underlying worldview as the "USA #1! USA #1!" crowd. The world is not so simple.

I think the reality is worse than anyone can imagine... Bush & co REALLY wanted to liberate the oppressed population and plant democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just as they said. This just tell something about how many hours of analysis they invested into the topic before they ordered the invasions.

This is true for many of the people who were involved in making the decisions; it was certainly true for me. I supported the Iraq War because I thought the Coalition (a) had a legal justification in the WMD issue and (b) had a brief window between the fall of the USSR and the rise of China when it should use its military power to liberate the Kosovans, Serbs, Iraqis, Burmese, and other oppressed peoples. (I was sharing a house with a couple of Palestinians at the time, and this was not a popular opinion - I had many opportunities to hear alternative views vehemently put forward!) I often made the comparison with the postwar reconstruction of West Germany and Italy. I still think those arguments were right. But the problem was that the Republicans wanted war on the cheap & easy, and that's not how war works.

The OP is absolutely right to say that the issue was not the decision to invade that was wrong so much as the decision not to properly fund and staff the Coalition's responsibilities as occupying power, which was taken personally by Rumsfeld and Cheney. The Bush White House thought the lesson of Somalia '92 was that Americans didn't do peacekeeping and that the occupation could be left to Europeans, but that totally undermined the West German/Italian precedent. The Allies didn't walk away from Germany in '45: they stayed for another 45 years and gave Marshall Aid. In the run-up to the war, Coalition government officials and military worked with Iraqis to make detailed plans for the occupation, but Cheney and Rumsfeld personally stopped the military in Iraq using them because they thought the plans were too expensive and unnecessary. That was at least an impeachable decision and possibly a war crime.

Anyone interested in the disaster of postwar reconstruction should read the reporting by the first-class American journalist Jim Fallows:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2004/01/blind-into-baghdad/302860/
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/12/why-iraq-has-no-army/304428/

And also the report where he predicted almost all of the problems that emerged six months before the war happened:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/11/the-fifty-first-state/302612/
 

bz249

Lt. General
29 Badges
Oct 20, 2008
1.667
216
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
The basic flaw with this theory is that it assumes the USA gets whatever it wants. You could say it's got the same underlying worldview as the "USA #1! USA #1!" crowd. The world is not so simple.

This is true for many of the people who were involved in making the decisions; it was certainly true for me. I supported the Iraq War because I thought the Coalition (a) had a legal justification in the WMD issue and (b) had a brief window between the fall of the USSR and the rise of China when it should use its military power to liberate the Kosovans, Serbs, Iraqis, Burmese, and other oppressed peoples. (I was sharing a house with a couple of Palestinians at the time, and this was not a popular opinion - I had many opportunities to hear alternative views vehemently put forward!) I often made the comparison with the postwar reconstruction of West Germany and Italy. I still think those arguments were right. But the problem was that the Republicans wanted war on the cheap & easy, and that's not how war works.

Western countries needed time to get used to democracy and the rule of law... England, France, Germany, Italy etc., all ended up in a dictatorship in their first try with a parliamentary period. Sometimes even multiple times. (the US is an exeption because they had an old guy with poor health as national hero, who was pressed into being president against his will and quit at the first opportunity)

So far the only succesful transition to a democratic state due to the Arab Spring is Tunisia. And they are again a special case, because they have a (to the standard of other countries) a diverse economics, ok education and a national tradition, and strong European influence.
 

gagenater

Field Marshal
20 Badges
May 18, 2004
3.657
224
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
Well, you don't have to be a master plotter to execute the strategy in which America excels since the end of WW2. American responses to most crises fail short of solving the problem due to inadequacy of forces that were committed to the task. America simply assumes that destabilization rather than solving is far more beneficial to her than to her rivals. War of attrition is always in USA's favor due to USA's immense resources. America's approach is in stark contrast to what the Soviets did, that is entering with huge force in order to deal with the problem once and for all.

Moreover, as far as leaks are to be believed, America was urged to get involved in the Middle East both by Arabs and Israelis. Everyone saw the huge crisis brewing due to the enormous generation of Arabs entering adult age.

The US doesn't excell at any strategy post WWII - we bounce from one lousy idea to another, underfund them all, under commit to them all, change them when the next administration comes in 4-8 years, then react in a panic to a real crisis every 10-20 years and toss the cards up in the air again. It only appears that this is successful due to that aforementioned advantage of immense resources. That means that no matter how badly we screw up, we always get another chance, and eventually we either do something right by accident, or we simply outlast our opponents and they collapse for some other reason and we claim responsibility for it.
 

RichStrat

Sergeant
3 Badges
Oct 5, 2014
66
14
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
The invasion of Iraq was a success in that brought majority rule to Iraq and ended centuries of minority Sunni oppression and seven decades of minority Sunni Arab oppression. No one as far I'm aware, at least excluding Jihaidsts predicted the ferocity and terror of the Sunni Arab resistance to democratic rule. I supported regime change in Iraq before Bush and Blair, before 9/11, before Bush 43 was even elected President, so I remember the arguments of the time, and the left's total and utter failure to predict the outcome of the invasion. Many leftists predicted that the people would rally behind Saddam, instead the people of Saddam (now Sadr) city came out to chant "death to the Dictator". Far from predicting that the Sunni Arab community of Iraq would turn to a more extreme than Al Qaeda Sunni Muslim fundamentalism, the left chastised us (supporters of the invasion) with placing those wonderful progressive secular Sunni Arabs under the rule of the theocratic minded Shia.

The insurgency in Iraq was an amazing phenomena. Many times we've seen minorities trying to bomb their way out of a country: Basques, Tamils, Northern Irish nationalists etc. What we've not seen before is an ethnic minority trying to bomb their way back into control of country. Its like if "extremist" White South Africans had started blowing up Black women and children in the hope that Blacks would give in and reinstall Apartheid.

Anyway hundreds of thousands of American troops were not required for a multi year occupation. When George Bush stood aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln and declared "Mission Accomplished" he spoke to truth. Power had been irreversibly transferred from the Sunni Arab minority to the Shia and Kurdish majority. The Shia and Kurdish militias, with backing from Iran were quite capable of containing and in the long term annihilating the Sunni Arab terrorist insurgency. Of course the Iraqi army based on multicultural dogma has been a complete flop.
 

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
18.731
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Anyway hundreds of thousands of American troops were not required for a multi year occupation. When George Bush stood aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln and declared "Mission Accomplished" he spoke to truth. Power had been irreversibly transferred from the Sunni Arab minority to the Shia and Kurdish majority. The Shia and Kurdish militias, with backing from Iran were quite capable of containing and in the long term annihilating the Sunni Arab terrorist insurgency. Of course the Iraqi army based on multicultural dogma has been a complete flop.
So, GBW wrecked the country's institutions, caused a decade long Civil War, empowered secessionist militias, and aggravated the country's minorities to the point where the Shia majority will oppress the hell out of their former sunni masters, and the sunni would rather support a nihilistic death cult intent on bringing about the apocalypse than their legitimate government.

But aside from that, operation Iraqi Freedom is a mission accomplished, hm? I would love to ask, if that is success, what would be your definition of a failure??
 

Båtsman

Second Lieutenant
11 Badges
Dec 29, 2015
116
74
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
For all who aren't aware, this was what Bush was saying in 2000, a complete 180 degree turn from what he was saying while in office (you won't spot any "with us or against us" ultimatums here).



But a bigger question slightly related to this is of course what relevance the middle east will hold in the future. Carbohydrates are on the way out to be replaced with cleaner and more efficient energy alternatives. Would NATO and Russia find other proxies to have a go at each other, or will the middle eastern nations' reliance on one economic sector unleash even more unrest to the region? That is an intriguing question.
 

JodelDiplom

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Apr 5, 2013
4.512
18.731
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
For all who aren't aware, this was what Bush was saying in 2000, a complete 180 degree turn from what he was saying while in office (you won't spot any "with us or against us" ultimatums here).



But a bigger question slightly related to this is of course what relevance the middle east will hold in the future. Carbohydrates are on the way out to be replaced with cleaner and more efficient energy alternatives. Would NATO and Russia find other proxies to have a go at each other, or will the middle eastern nations' reliance on one economic sector unleash even more unrest to the region? That is an intriguing question.
We will continue to need carbohydrates for transportation fuel, chemical feedstock and other uses for a very long time. The relevant deposits are mainly in the middle east, so I don't see how the region will stop disappearing from the political radar. Especially since a few of the countries (well mostly Iran) do have a future even if the economic significance of oil and gas were to diminish.
 

RichStrat

Sergeant
3 Badges
Oct 5, 2014
66
14
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
But aside from that, operation Iraqi Freedom is a mission accomplished, hm? I would love to ask, if that is success, what would be your definition of a failure??
1991 where we sat back and allowed Saddam to slaughter between one hundred and four hundred thousand Shia. And then there was the Sanctions. When the UN reported that eight hundred thousand people, including half a million children had died under the American led sanctions, most Americans were understandably uninterested. The United States at the time was wrestling with far more important moral issues like whether the President had put his hand had up a secretary's skirt. But the sanctions were possibly the biggest recruitment driver for Al Qaeda in the years prior to 9/11. This notion that Bush destroyed some sort of Iraqi or even wider Middle East stability is pure fantasy.
 

Herbert West

Field Marshal
64 Badges
Jul 24, 2006
3.726
12.706
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH
  • Victoria 2
1991 where we sat back and allowed Saddam to slaughter between one hundred and four hundred thousand Shia. And then there was the Sanctions. When the UN reported that eight hundred thousand people, including half a million children had died under the American led sanctions, most Americans were understandably uninterested. The United States at the time was wrestling with far more important moral issues like whether the President had put his hand had up a secretary's skirt. But the sanctions were possibly the biggest recruitment driver for Al Qaeda in the years prior to 9/11. This notion that Bush destroyed some sort of Iraqi or even wider Middle East stability is pure fantasy.

Wait, how do you square the starvation caused by the sanctions with your assertion that the US has not underminded Iraqi stability. B is caused by A, dude.
 

Gordy

Ex-Senior Full Chairman of the Pedantry Commitee
1 Badges
Dec 16, 2003
2.863
1.912
  • Pillars of Eternity
Afghanistan has been a playground for international jihadis since 1979 when the USSR invaded. When the USA invaded, there had been twenty two years of permanent conflict between the Soviets and the mujahadeen followed by various mujahadeen factions fighting each other then Taliban fighting mujahadeen factions etc.It makes no sense to argue that the Americans invaded to create a safe battlefield where jihadis would be far away from Americans and their interests, Afganistan was already like that long before Bush.

Iraq was a peaceful, if oppressed, country before the Bush invasion and it has deteriorated into a battleground for Islamic extremists but it's not worse than Syria and other countries where the Americans did not invade e.g. Libya, Yemen are also pretty messed up. It's hard to say what Iraq would look like today without the 2003 invasion. It may have had a few more years of peace and then much the same problems (or even worse).