Inwards Perfection and Greater Good

[MateuszS]

So, apparently IP AI tends to vote for Greater Good.
https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Galactic_community#Resolutions
Leaving mere participation of those isolationsts in GalCom aside, isn't it an odd choice?
- they're xenophobic isolationists so why would they bother about living conditions of other species?
- they displace xenos by default (and displaced species have basic substinence living conditions which puts IP empire in breach of L2 Greater Good)

If anything, IPs should vote strongly for Rules of War (and maybe for Divinity of Life, if they're not materialist).

 

[SirBlackAxe]

Yeah, that does seem a bit odd. Inward Perfect does already vote for Rules of War (×2 for pacifist) though.

 

[Ryika]

GalCom AI is pretty random in general. I'm more surprised when I see a Resolution where the majority of empires votes for something fitting than the other way around.

 

[Objulen]

So, apparently IP AI tends to vote for Greater Good.
https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Galactic_community#Resolutions
Leaving mere participation of those isolationsts in GalCom aside, isn't it an odd choice?
- they're xenophobic isolationists so why would they bother about living conditions of other species?
- they displace xenos by default (and displaced species have basic substinence living conditions which puts IP empire in breach of L2 Greater Good)

If anything, IPs should vote strongly for Rules of War (and maybe for Divinity of Life, if they're not materialist).

A better question is why an IP empire joined the Galactic Community in the first place. They don't want to get involved in all that xenos nonsense in the first place, no?

 

[MateuszS]

A better question is why an IP empire joined the Galactic Community in the first place. Don't the not want to get involved in all that xenos nonsense?

IP should add some modifier against joining GalCom, indeed.

 

[bunkerman]

as an inwards perfectionist myself i see it as making sure the filthy xenos do not plan to unite and betray us thus making us unable to inwardly perfect ourselves

 

[Objulen]

as an inwards perfectionist myself i see it as making sure the filthy xenos do not plan to unite and betray us thus making us unable to inwardly perfect ourselves

Sure, there are possible justifications, but it doesn't make the most sense that they'd just up and join. They aren't a typical xenophobe society - they specifically want to be left alone.

 

[bunkerman]

Sure, there are possible justifications, but it doesn't make the most sense that they'd just up and join. They aren't a typical xenophobe society - they specifically want to be left alone.

sure but the yalso arent necessarily stupid, they know that sending that 1 diplomat there as a sacrificial lamb they prevent the filthy xenos from meddling in their inwards perfection in much worse ways

 

[Ryika]

IP should add some modifier against joining GalCom, indeed.

They do have - or rather, Xenophobes have. But it's just a really simplistic system, heavily geared towards filling the GalCom, and I'm not sure it even entirely works as intended.

At baseline, when the decision to form the GalCom is made, most empires are simply 3 times more likely to say yes than no.
Xenophiles gain a x3 modifier on saying yes, or x10 if they're Fanatic Xenophiles. The same's true for a few of the Cooperative-themed Civics.
Xenophobes gain a x3 modifier on saying no (so it's a 50/50 overall! Yay?), Fanatic Xenophobes gain a x10 modifier.

And that's it for the forming part. Very simplistic and lacking in nuance to begin with.
But then when the GalCom has been formed successfully, pretty much everybody will join the GalCom anyway independent from what type of empire they are.

The entire design is essentially just "Everyone, get in here!" (Kudos to those who get the references and have nightmares about it as I have) - filling the GalCom at all costs without caring about whether it fits the empires, or doesn't.

 

[MateuszS]

sure but the yalso arent necessarily stupid, they know that sending that 1 diplomat there as a sacrificial lamb they prevent the filthy xenos from meddling in their inwards perfection in much worse ways

Well, if they don't join, the only way GC can hurt them is by pushing militarist resolutions up to level 4 (not counting normal wars). If they join however, they'll expose themselves to all other resolutions.

I think that IPs should have straight 50% chances to simply not join. Obviously they shouldn't bother with Greater Good.

 

[Objulen]

sure but the yalso arent necessarily stupid, they know that sending that 1 diplomat there as a sacrificial lamb they prevent the filthy xenos from meddling in their inwards perfection in much worse ways

It's too reductionist to simply call it "stupid". Outside of the Galactic Community's sanctions, other empires don't have many ways to meddle in your empire - espionage and war are the only two ways to do so. Nearby barbarians are going to be hostile, so it is better to see to your own borders and defenses than make yourselves beholden to inferior xenos' whims.

 

[Derp Throat]

The entire design is essentially just "Everyone, get in here!" (Kudos to those who get the references and have nightmares about it as I have) - filling the GalCom at all costs without caring about whether it fits the empires, or doesn't.

A fight? Count me in!

 

[bunkerman]

It's too reductionist to simply call it "stupid". Outside of the Galactic Community's sanctions, other empires don't have many ways to meddle in your empire - espionage and war are the only two ways to do so. Nearby barbarians are going to be hostile, so it is better to see to your own borders and defenses than make yourselves beholden to inferior xenos' whims.

i think we are hitting the differences here between the idea of galactic community and what the galactc community actually does in the game. I was talking more from the idea of what it should be perspective. If we are talking ingame implementation then id say nobody should really join the community, its more of a liability than a boon to most empires, especially for AI ones as AI even if it somehow got a huge chunk of teh vote, has no idea what agendas to push to help itself instead of crippling itself

 

[Objulen]

i think we are hitting the differences here between the idea of galactic community and what the galactc community actually does in the game. I was talking more from the idea of what it should be perspective. If we are talking ingame implementation then id say nobody should really join the community, its more of a liability than a boon to most empires, especially for AI ones as AI even if it somehow got a huge chunk of teh vote, has no idea what agendas to push to help itself instead of crippling itself

That's a question of the AI, however - I agree that for the AI it's generally a bad option, but for players it's generally a great option, since you can easily pull far enough ahead of other AI empires to have a significant amount of control over votes. But then again, the AI is there for the player, so they're just doing their job?

The GC AI could use a refit. I've never seen the AI horse trade or call in favors. Especially with the diplomacy tradition tree, a shrewd AI empire, even a small one, could persue dimplomatic ties with stronger empires and collect favors to ensure that they get the legislation they want passed. That kind of horse trading and maneuvering is lacking.

 

[Olterin]

I've never seen the AI horse trade or call in favors.

Just to touch on this one - as of Lem, I have come across a situation when an AI empire very obviously called in favors, very nearly stopping my resolution from passing despite me being the absolute majority in GC in terms of votes. I don't have that save anymore, unfortunately, but said AI would normally have had about 12k diplo weight, yet on this resolution, one they were heavily opposed to, they somehow had more along the lines of 250k diplo weight - this would only be attainable by using favors gained, specifically on me, via the new diplomacy perk.

Anecdotal, and lacking proof, I know - but I was very, very surprised to see this happen.

 

[Mastikator]

as an inwards perfectionist myself i see it as making sure the filthy xenos do not plan to unite and betray us thus making us unable to inwardly perfect ourselves

It'd be funny if IP joined only so they could oppose every resolution, except for galactic council and council veto, only so they can veto any resolution that might pass.

 

[bunkerman]

It'd be funny if IP joined only so they could oppose every resolution, except for galactic council and council veto, only so they can veto any resolution that might pass.

yeah thats one of the things i had in mind, simply join to disrupt